Cemeteries and Response to Criticism

Cemeteries and Response to Criticism

Cemeteries and Response to Criticism

Marc B. Shapiro

In my last post here I said that when it is safe, I will go to Baghdad to visit the grave of the Ben Ish Hai. I cannot find a picture of the Ben Ish Hai’s grave online, but you can see it in R. Yaakov Moshe Hillel’s beautifully produced recent book, Ben Ish Hai, p. 337. However, this is from the old cemetery in Baghdad, and because of a government order the remains in this cemetery were moved in the early 1960s. So it remains to be seen if the grave can now be located.[1] R. Hillel, p. 336 n. 480, claims that the precise location cannot be identified.

כיום, לא ניתן לזהות את קבריהם, בשל תנאי אקלים קשים השוררים בבבל אשר גרמו להתפוררות המצבות, ומחוסר רישום מדוייק של חלקות הקבורה.

Yet until we can go in and actually examine the spot, we cannot be certain if this is the case. There have been other examples of graves thought to have been lost, which have then been found. The best-known example is the grave of R. Israel Salanter, which was only located twenty years ago.[2]

While there is no doubt that the Ben Ish Hai was buried in Baghdad, there is also a tombstone for him on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

According to a famous story, which is also told on the tombstone, the Ben Ish Hai’s body was not only magically transferred to Jerusalem on the day he died, but the grave-digger testified to burying him on the Mount of Olives and wanted payment for his labor.[3] I guess we can say that the Ben Ish Hai was buried three times: twice in Baghdad and once in Jerusalem.

It is hard to know whether the entire story of the burial in Jerusalem is a legend, or if there actually was a grave digger who figured out a way to make some money and invented the story to get paid for digging the grave. Assuming the latter is the case, the grave digger must have known his crowd, that not only would they be inclined to believe such a story, but that they would also not think of actually confirming the story by digging up the grave. Truth be told, it would have to be a very fearless grave digger to leave the grave empty, because one never knows if it will be opened, so it is possible that some unknown person is actually found beneath the tombstone. It is also possible that the grave digger did not have any bad intent, but just had a very vivid imagination. In any case, it is fascinating that such a tombstone exists in the most special Jewish cemetery, and even more incredible that there are people who actually believe that the Ben Ish Hai is buried there.

Supposedly, the Ben Ish Hai’s tombstone on the Mount of Olives is the only one that is standing upright, as all others are horizontal. (Maybe someone in Jerusalem can confirm this.) It is worth noting that R. Yitzhak Kaduri paid the grave in Jerusalem no mind, and even joked about it.[4] R. Shmuel Eliyahu has stated that while the Ben Ish Hai is buried in Baghdad, his spirit came to Jerusalem.[5]

Similar to the story with the Ben Ish Hai’s burial place, R. Abraham Joshua of Apt is buried in Medzhybizh, near the Baal Shem Tov’s grave, but there is a legend that angels carried his body to Tiberias, and there is a stone marking his grave there as well.[6]

This last summer I was in Marrakech, Morocco. In the local Jewish cemetery, R. Jacob Timsut is buried. Yet, “one month after the deceased rabbi was buried in Marrakech, a letter arrived from Jerusalem announcing the marvelous appearance of a tombstone with the name of Rabbi Ya’aqov Timsut in the well-known cemetery on the Mount of Olives.”[7] So once again, you can visit the tzaddik’s grave in its original spot or in Jerusalem.

Regarding tombstones even though the deceased is not buried there, I must call attention to the fascinating comments of R. Hayyim Nathan Dembitzer (1820-1892). R. Dembitzer was a dayan in Cracow and author of the responsa volume Torat Hen. Yet his claim to fame is his historical writings. As a real historian, he was prepared to accept the truth from where it came, and it is significant that in his work Mikhtevei Bikoret (Cracow, 1892), he included correspondence with Heinrich Graetz. Here is the title page and the first two pages of this book.

 

Look at how respectfully he refers to Graetz, which is the sort of thing that would have driven R. Samson Raphael Hirsch and R. Esriel Hildesheimer crazy.

Dembitzer’s respectful scholarly interactions with Graetz, in which he did not let religious differences interfere, is parallel to how certain important rabbinic figures related respectfully to Louis Ginzberg. I dealt with this matter in Saul Lieberman and the Orthodox, and it has also recently been discussed by R. Moshe Maimon.[8] Interestingly, in Mikhtevei Bikoret R. Dembitzer also includes correspondence with Nachum Sokolow.

Dembitzer’s two-volume Kelilat Yofi is focused on the rabbis of Lvov as well as other Polish rabbis, and is essential for anyone doing research on the Polish rabbinate. In this work, vol. 1 p. 41a, he mentions that Elyakim Carmoly had written that in earlier years in Lvov they would place tombstones in the cemetery for the deceased scholars of the city even if they had died and were buried elsewhere.

Dembitzer does not give an exact reference for Carmoly, only mentioning that his comment is in Ha-Karmel. Fortunately, I was able to find Carmoly’s article and it appears in Ha-Karmel, April 17, 1867, p. 302. Carmoly’s has two proofs for his contention. The first proof is that in R. Gavriel ben Naftali Hertz’s Matzevat Kodesh (Lemberg 1864), vol. 2, in the second half of the book (there is no pagination here), we find the following tombstone for R. Elijah Kalmankash, who served as rav of Lvov.

The tombstone explicitly states:

.וישכב עם אבותיו ויקבר במקום קבר אביו ולא ידע איש את קבורתו עד היום הזה

This is a clear proof that at least for this rabbi, a tombstone was placed in the ground even though he was not buried there.

Carmoly also notes, as his second proof, that in Matzevat Kodesh, vol. 2, p. 22a, it records, from the Lvov cemetery the text of the tombstone of R. Petahiah, son of R. David Lida who was rav of Amsterdam. His date of death is given as 1721. Here is the text of the tombstone as recorded in Matzevat Kodesh.

(Following R. Petahiah’s tombstone, Matzevat Kodesh records the tombstones of another son and son-in-law of R. Lida.) However, Carmoly tells us that we know that R. Petahiah died and was buried in Frankfurt. R. Markus Horowitz in his Avnei Zikaron (Frankfurt, 1901), p. 290 (no. 2712), published many years after Carmoly’s article, records the text of his tombstone as follows.

As you can see, the date of death is 1751, thirty years later than the date given on the tombstone in Lvov. In other similar cases, I would say that we are dealing with two different people, but the specificity of the tombstone texts makes it hard to deny that they are both for the same person (and Petahiah was hardly a common name).[9] Carmoly’s conclusion is that the community of Lvov put up a tombstone for R. Petahiah to memorialize him, even though he was buried in Frankfurt. Neither Carmoly nor R. Dembitzer offer an explanation as to why the Lvov tombstone places his death thirty years too soon, but they would probably view this as just a simple error.

Dembitzer not only agrees with Carmoly in the case of R. Petahiah, but offers another example of this phenomenon. R. Zvi Hirsch ben Zekhariah Mendel had served as rav in Lvov, but later he was rav in Lublin and died there around 1700. However, there was a tombstone for him in Lvov which gave his date of death at 1655. R. Dembitzer does not explain the discrepancy of the dates of death, and presumably he would say that when the tombstone was put up in Lvov to honor the deceased former rav of the city (who was not buried there), they simply got the date of death wrong. Interestingly, Shlomo Tal accepted the statements of Carmoly and R. Dembitzer, and in summarizing their position speaks of “many fictitious tombstones.”[10]

Dembitzer also makes the astounding assertion that there are graves in the Lvov cemetery for rabbis who never existed! His proof is that there is a tombstone for a Rabbi Eliezer ben Moshe ha-Kohen Proops (פרופס), who is said to have been av beit din in Amsterdam before he came to Lvov. Yet R. Dembitzer states that no such person was av beit din in Amsterdam, and we thus see that the people who made the tombstones did so for rabbis who never existed![11]

כי גם זאת לפנים בלבוב, להקים ג”כ מצבות אבנים ולחקוק עליהם שמות חכמי ישראל אשר לא מתו ולא נקברו לא בלבוב, וגם לא במקומות אחרים, יען כי לא היו ולא נבראו ולא באו עוד לעולם . . . ומי לידינו יתקע אם לא עשו זכרונות במצבות אבנים כאלה גם לשאר גאונים אשר בדו מלבם וקראו בשמותם עלי אדמה, וקבעו גם כן זמן לפטירתם

This is a very strange assertion, and even if it is correct, it refers to one case only, while R. Dembitzer uses it to make a generalization. The only one I know who took note of R. Dembitzer’s assertions was R. Hayyim Eleazar Shapira in a letter to R. Leopold Greenwald.[12] R. Shapira rejects R. Dembitzer’s claim in a very sharp tone.

ולא יאומן כי יסופר כי מרב גדול בתורה יצאו דברי הבל כאלו אשר כל השומע ויודע יצחק להם, ליתן מצבות ומקום בעד אותן שאינם נקברים שם ולכתוב שקר גמור “פ”נ” על להד”ם ולהשחית הקרקע שלא נקברו שם אין כדאי להטפל בדברי ריק כאלו. ואם בשביל קושיות שמצאו כמו ב’ מצבות כמו שני יוסף בן שמעון בשתי עיירות כלומר בתי קברות הנה שערי תירוצים לא ננעלו ונמצאו באמת שנים ששמותיהן שוות או לא העתיקו המצבות במקום אחד כראוי

Shapira makes the obvious point that two people with the same name can be buried in different cemeteries without them being the same person. However, this does not explain how there can be two tombstones for R. Petahiah, the son of R. David Lida, or how there can be a tombstone for another rabbi in the Lvov cemetery when we know that he was buried elsewhere.

Regarding what we have discussed, I would only add that in the new Jewish cemetery in Vienna (the same one that R. Israel Friedman, the Chortkover Rebbe, is buried in), there is a tombstone for three members of the Chevra Kadisha who perished in the Holocaust. While it looks like a normal grave, none of the three men mentioned on the tombstone are actually buried there.[13] Here is the tombstone.

I owe this information and the picture to Dr. Tim Corbett, whose book on the Jewish cemeteries of Vienna will hopefully soon be published.

Since I just mentioned R. Hayyim Eleazar Shapira, let me mention something else he says that is fascinating. In the past two posts I discussed apostate rabbis. It is bad enough when an average person apostatizes, but for a rabbi to do so could have had terrible consequences on the community in that it could lead to many weak of heart to follow. Can anyone imagine, however, someone apostatizing as an act of teshuvah? It sounds crazy, but R. Shapira reported that he had it by tradition that such an incident happened in medieval times.[14]

The story he tells is that there was a popular preacher who in his public talks inserted all sorts of heretical ideas. After he was rebuked by one of the rabbis for preaching his heresies, the man confessed his sins and asked what he should do to repent. The rabbi told him that his repentance would not help, as for years he has gone from place to place spreading his heresy. How could he possibly repent for this? The rabbi said that what he must do is convert to Christianity. The Jewish world would then hear about this and this would remove the legitimacy from any of his sermons, as people would assume that even before his apostasy he was a heretic. Only by doing this could he destroy the impact he made with his earlier sermons.

Let me mention one final responsum for now. In the eighteenth century, R. Elijah Israel of Rhodes dealt with the case of someone who converted to Islam in Izmir, and then wished to come to Rhodes in order to return to Judaism.[15] Practicing Judaism after converting to Islam was illegal, and could endanger everyone in the community. The man was therefore warned not to come to Rhodes, where Muslim merchants might recognize him, but he ignored this warning. Making matters worse, the man had already once before converted to Islam and reverted to Judaism, meaning that there was no way that the Jewish community could have any dealings with him.

Israel permitted letting the authorities know about this man, as he was regarded as a danger to the community. The punishment for his “crime” of leaving Islam would have been severe and could even have included the death penalty, but R. Israel allowed informing the authorities as the man had the status of a rodef. He writes:

מי שמסכן רבים כגון שעוסק בזיופים במקום שהמלכיות מקפידות דינו כרודף ומותר למוסרו למלכות ע”כ וכ”ש וק”ו במי שהמיר דת ורוצה לחזור לדתו שההקפדה היא גדולה שהוא בזוי גדול לדעתם פן תצא כאש חמתם ח”ו ובערם ואין מכבה שמותר למוסרו כדי להציל את ישראל

* * * * * *

In the most recent issue of Dialogue 8 (2019), pp. 35-83, Rabbi Herschel Grossman published a lengthy review of my Limits of Orthodox Theology.[16] Normally I, like any author, would be very happy that so many years after a book’s appearance people are still interested in examining it and engaging with its arguments. Unfortunately, that is not the case with the present review which, it must be said, is nothing less than slanderous. Had the author taken issue with my interpretation of texts and shown why I am mistaken, this would have been a fine way to approach the book. It could be that I would even acknowledge that in some cases his understanding is preferable to mine. As readers of this blog know, I am perfectly willing to acknowledge when I have erred and am happy to credit those who called my attention to these errors. This is how scholarship is supposed to work, and anyone who writes, especially someone who writes a great deal using lots of different sources, will sometimes make a mistake. I myself have called attention to my own errors, without anyone prompting me, as I think it is important for all of us to be as exacting as we can.

However, this is not what the review is about, or, I should say, not what it is mainly about. In future posts I will come to the issue about how to interpret specific texts (and I will defend my readings), but first I must explain why I said that the review is slanderous. It is because Grossman accuses me of saying things that I never said, and throughout he misunderstands the purpose of the book, and of academic Jewish studies as a whole. In general, it is obvious from the review that although Grossman has never met me or even spoken to me, and I have never done him any wrong, he sees me as an enemy that he has to destroy.[17] With such a preconceived notion, it is no wonder that he comes to such incorrect conclusions as to what I am trying to say, and can write a review that is so mean-spirited and dripping with contempt. Based on e-mail correspondence with readers, I do not believe that anyone who has read the book will be taken in by the review’s distortions. However, those who haven’t read the book will probably come away with a false understanding, so it is important to clear this matter up before getting to any arguments over how to interpret particular sources.

Before going through the article itself, let’s look at the end where Grossman says that the book “falls short of its promise to prove that the Rambam was wrong in presenting his Principles as central to Judaism” (p. 83). I think everyone who has read the book knows that of all the things I try to do, one thing I do not do, and indeed it would have been incomprehensible to even imagine such a task, is attempt to prove that the Rambam was wrong. Even if I were a theologian, which I am not, I could not imagine myself ever trying to prove the Rambam (or R. Bahya, R. Saadiah, Ibn Ezra, etc. etc.) wrong. This is simply not how I operate.

The notion that I attempted to prove the Rambam wrong is so far from what I was trying to do in the book, that as mentioned, I don’t believe that anyone who actually read the book, or any of the other reviews, would have concluded as such. What they would have seen is that I try to show that the Rambam’s principles were disputed by others, and thus did not receive complete acceptance. I try to prove this point, but this is very different than trying to “prove that the Rambam was wrong.”

I don’t even know how one would be able to prove the Rambam, or any other Jewish thinker, “right or wrong” on theological matters. Is it possible to “prove” that creation was ex nihilo or from pre-existent matter, or can we ever “prove” that prayers should not be addressed to angels? Today, unlike in medieval times, most of us assume that by their very nature, theological discussions are not subject to “proof”. The most one can do is try to show which position makes more logical sense and is in line with biblical and rabbinic teachings.[18]

In his conclusion, Grossman also writes, in opposition to my supposed error, “that the Rambam’s Principles of Judaism remain the correct affirmation of Jewish belief.” Again, this sentence has nothing to do with my book, as it assumes that I claimed that the Rambam’s principles are incorrect. Had he understood what the book is about, and he wished to dispute with me, he would instead have written “that the Rambam’s Principles of Judaism are the generally accepted [or: halakhically binding, or: rabbinically sanctioned, etc.] affirmation of Jewish belief.”

Let us now start at the beginning. Grossman begins his review—and I will be going through it page by page responding to his attacks—by stating that “the academic approach to matters of Torah learning is radically different from that of the talmid chochom” (p. 36). This is an incorrect statement, as many followers of the academic approach are themselves talmidei hakhamim. What Grossman should have written is that the academic approach is different than the traditional approach. With regard to academic works, Grossman states: “Many of the conclusions of these works are at variance with accepted Torah teachings” (p. 35). No doubt that this is a true statement, but of course, the issue we will have to get into is what is the definition of “accepted Torah teachings.” As all readers of this blog are aware, R. Natan Slifkin’s books were banned because they were seen to be at variance with “accepted Torah teachings,” so the fundamental issue will be which teachings are supposedly accepted.

Grossman writes as follows in explaining the difference between a traditional Torah scholar and an academic scholar:

[For] the talmid chochom, a difficulty in the words of the authority creates a challenge for him to discover the true meaning of the authority. For many academics, a difficulty is proof that the authority is wrong (p. 36).

Grossman identifies me as one of the academics who try to show that an authority is wrong, so let us see whether this is indeed the case. He begins by stating about my book: “Its thrust is that the Rambam erred in codifying these Principles.” We have already seen this unbelievable distortion in his conclusion, as if one of my goals was to show that the Rambam was mistaken.

Grossman further states that “while some earlier scholars have disputed whether some of the Principles deserve to be listed as basic to Judaism . . . all have conceded that the tenets expressed by the Principles are correct” (p. 36). This statement is grossly inaccurate, as virtually every page of my book demonstrates (and in various blog posts I have also cited numerous authorities who disagree with certain of Maimonides’ principles).[19] Even if all of Grossman’s criticisms of particular points of mine are correct (and I will come back to this), it still leaves loads of sources at odds with the Rambam. The sentence is nothing less than shocking, since rather than acknowledging that other authorities disagreed with certain Principles of the Rambam, but claiming that these authorities’ views are to be rejected for one reason for another, Grossman states that “all have conceded” that the Rambam’s views are correct. It is hard to know how to reply to such a statement that completely disregards the truth that everyone can see with their own eyes.

In Limits, p. 26, I quoted the following from R. Bezalel Naor, who was repeating what he heard from R. Shlomo Fisher: “The truth, known to Torah scholars, is that Maimonides’ formulation of the tenets of Jewish belief is far from universally accepted.” R. Naor informed me that R. Fisher made this statement in explaining R. Judah he-Hasid’s view about post-Mosaic additions to the Torah. In other words, R. Judah he-Hasid’s view is not in line with Maimonides’ Principles, but this is not the only such example of Torah sages diverging from the Principles.

Grossman continues by stating that I conclude “that the Rambam’s formulation of the underlying beliefs of Judaism was his own innovation” (pp. 36-37). What does this sentence mean? Apparently, he wants the reader to think that I said that the Rambam just invented his Principles out of thin air, which is of course incorrect as I never said this. If the meaning is that the very notion of a list of doctrines formulated as Principles of Faith, with all that this entails, was the Rambam’s innovation, there is nothing controversial about this at all, and I discuss whether the Rambam was the first to do this and what led him to do so.

Grossman continues: “Even such basic tenets as the belief in God’s unity, or in God’s non-corporeality, says Shapiro, are the Rambam’s own assertions and subject to dispute, with no firm basis in the Torah or in Chazal” (p. 37). I never say that these tenets are the Rambam’s own assertion without any prior basis (as if the Rambam invented these ideas). When it comes to the belief in God’s unity, I state explicitly that no Jewish teacher has ever disputed this (although how they understood God’s “unity” was subject to dispute). As for God’s incorporeality, I will come back to this in greater detail in a later post, where I will also deal with R. Isaiah ben Elijah of Trani’s claim that divine incorporeality is not a principle of faith, as well as Maimonides’ view that in its simple meaning (but only in its simple meaning), the Torah itself teaches God’s corporeality (for the benefit of those people who at the beginning of their studies are not able to understand the profound concept of a deity without form). Since I will then analyze this matter in great detail, I do not want to get into it here. For now, I will simply say that in the book I discussed whether divine incorporeality was accepted by all Jews at all times, and if corporeal views of God can be found in the Talmud (as was stated by R. Isaiah ben Elijah of Trani).

On p. 37 Grossman writes:

Shapiro, who mocks the opinions of Rabbeynu Nissim, R. Moshe Feinstein, Chazon Ish, Arizal, and R. Ya’akov Emden, among others, goes one step beyond Kellner in his belief that he, Shapiro, is better able than Rambam to interpret explicit verses of the Torah (as we shall see below).

This is nothing less than slander since I never, not even once, mock the opinions of any of these great rabbis or anyone else. When I read this sentence, I had no clue what he was talking about, as this is not how I operate, and was shocked when I went to the sources he refers to. Let us look at what Grossman regards as “mocking”.

For my mocking of R. Nissim, he refers the reader to p. 84 in my book where I write that R. Nissim “puts forth the strange and original position that there is one particular angel before whom prostration is permitted.” This is mocking?[20]

For my “mocking” of R. Moshe Feinstein’s opinions he provides three sources.

On p. 101 n. 73, I discuss R. Moshe’s rejection of the authenticity of a passage in Avot de-Rabbi Nathan. I write that R. Moshe’s “rejection of the authenticity of this passage should be viewed as part of his pattern of discarding sources that do not fit in with his understanding. He does so even when the sources are neither contradicted by other writings of the authors involved nor by other versions of the text in question.” Where is the mocking?

On p. 157, I write: “Although R. Moses Feinstein was the greatest posek of his time, he seems to have had no knowledge of Maimonidean philosophy. He was therefore able to state that Maimonides believed in the protective power of holy names and the names of angels, as used in amulets.” Where is the mocking?[21]

The last source where I am said to be mocking R. Moshe’s opinion is p. 159 of my book. Here is the page.

All I do here is cite R. Moshe’s comment about those who oppose kollels by citing the Rambam. I have also seen R. Moshe quoted as saying that it is noteworthy that those who oppose kollels based on the Rambam only adopt this one “humra” of the Rambam. The Rambam has lots of other humrot, yet people don’t adopt these stringencies. They only want to be “mahmir” in accordance with the Rambam so as not to support kollels. To say that I am mocking R. Moshe’s opinion is not only slander, it is completely incomprehensible.

Regarding the Hazon Ish, Grossman refers to p. 17. On this page I mention the views of many who held that the Thirteen Principles are the fundamentals of Judaism, and I include a passage from the Hazon Ish. I don’t see any mocking.[22] He also refers to p. 65 n. 124, where I mention a number of sages, including the Hazon Ish, who say that the Rambam’s view that belief in divine corporeality is heresy (Hilkhot Teshuvah 3:7) does not refer to someone who does not know any better, and thus the Rambam is not in dispute with Rabad who criticizes the Rambam on precisely this point. In response to those authorities who made this argument, I wrote: “They obviously never saw Guide I, 36, cited above, p. 48.” In this source, Maimonides specifically rejects the notion argued by the Hazon Ish and others that Maimonides is not speaking of the person who does not know any better. In fact, R. Kafih goes so far as to say, in his commentary to Hilkhot Teshuvah 3:7, that Maimonides saw Rabad’s comment and Guide 1:36 was written specifically in response to it, in order that people not assume that Rabad’s position can be regarded as theologically sound.

Regarding R. Isaac Luria, Grossman points to p. 90, where I write:

Finally, I must mention R. Isaac Luria’s view that Moses’ understanding of divine matters was inferior to that of certain kabbalists (including himself!). This notion is elaborated upon by R. Shneur Zalman of Lyady (1745-1813), who asks, “’How did Rabbi Isaac Luria, of blessed memory, apprehend more than he, and expound many themes dealing with the highest and most profound levels [penimiyut], even of many Sefirot.”

Again, I don’t know where there is any mocking. Incidentally, a reader has made a very good case that I am incorrect, and R. Isaac Luria and R. Shneur Zalman should not be cited as opposing Maimonides’ principle. In a future post, I will present this argument, which R. Chaim Rapoport told me he agrees with.

Regarding R. Emden, Grossman refers the reader to p. 16 n. 63. Nowhere in this note do I mock an opinion of R. Emden. What I do say is that his sexuality was complex. In retrospect, I regret including this comment, since it is not really relevant to the matter at hand. Yet there is no question that when it comes to sexual matters, there is something very much out of the ordinary, especially for rabbinic greats, in how R. Emden writes about these things. This is something that I believe is acknowledged by everyone who has studied R. Emden’s writings, including the most haredi among us, even if they won’t put such statements in writing. Mortimer Cohen, in his book on R. Emden, famously pointed to sexuality to explain how R. Emden could have attacked R. Eybeschütz the way he did, with such outrageous accusations. Still, I believe that Jacob J. Schacter is correct when he states: “[W]hile it is clear that Emden had a complex and contentious personality, all this emphasis on his sexuality is really irrelevant to his attack on Eybeschütz.”[23] I for one am not comfortable with psychological interpretations, even if in this case such an interpretation can be used as a limud zekhut for some of the shocking things R. Emden says, and if I was writing the book now I would leave out the passage mentioned above. Yet where is the mocking? The only mocking I see is how Grossman continuously mocks me.

Grossman writes: “Shapiro does not refrain from adducing explicit Talmudic passages as contradictions to the Rambam, presuming that the Rambam overlooked or ignored them, something which innumerable Talmudic scholars in past centuries have considered inconceivable” (pp. 37-38). In the book I never say that the Rambam overlooked talmudic passages. I do say that he did not accept the outlook of every talmudic passage (which Grossman terms, “ignored them”). The Rambam famously held that not every passage in the non-halakhic sections of the Talmud is binding.

Grossman continues:

Shapiro is unimpressed by all these arguments; nor is he averse to dismissing Rambam’s opinion based on his, Shapiro’s, own reading of a Talmudic passage, even where there is no doubt that the Rambam had a different reading for it. An academic, he obviously feels, is privileged to interpret the Talmud better than the Rambam was [!], even where this presumption leads to bizarre conclusions (p. 38).

The only thing that is bizarre here is Grossman’s statement, for I can assure everyone that in the book I do not engage in talmudic debate with the Rambam, dismiss the Rambam’s opinion, and think that I am able to interpret the Talmud better than the Rambam. If someone offers, say, a new interpretation of a talmudic passage, does this mean he thinks he can interpret the Talmud better than Rashi or the Rambam?

Another false statement is found on p. 38 where Grossman states: “Although he is to be commended for the amount of research he has invested into his work—the citations he has amassed are voluminous—it seems that many of the references were culled from secondary sources without examining the originals.” I can state with absolute certainty—and other than Grossman, I don’t think anyone else has ever raised such an accusation of scholarly malpractice—that I have examined every original source cited in the book. Not only that, but I have examined every source in every book I have published and in every blog post. I have never cited a source that I have not examined “inside” unless I indicate so. This does not mean that I have never misinterpreted a source, and in subsequent posts I will examine some examples where Grossman offers a different reading. But for now, suffice it to say that it is nothing less than slander to state that I included sources in the book that I did not examine myself (and this, by the way, was before the existence of the various digital databases. Librarians at JTS and YU can remember me as I was constantly there during the time I was writing the book.)

The final point for now is Grossman’s conclusion of the first part of his review:

To analyze the errors in this book would require a book in itself, nor is this the purpose of this article. The purpose is to show the lack of basis for Shapiro’s assertions (1) that the Rambam’s Principles have no basis in Talmudic literature; (2) that he created these Principles either to advance his philosophic conclusions or for polemic purposes; and (3) that many authorities thought the Principles “were wrong, pure and simple” (p. 38).

Point 1 is incorrect. I never state that the Rambam’s Principles have no basis in talmudic literature. Every single one of the Principles can find support in the Talmud (even if others might disagree with how to interpret the talmudic passages), and I cite examples of this in the book. What I do say is that the concept of Principles of Faith put forth by Maimonides, that one can commit endless sins but if he believes in the Principles he is still a Jew in good standing (albeit a sinning Jew) with a share in the World to Come, and if he denies or doubts even one of the Principles, even if he did not know any better and even if he fulfilled all the mitzvot, he does not have a share in the World to Come, such a concept is not found in talmudic literature. I am hardly the first to say this. Many of the Rambam’s rabbinic critics made this point, and as far as I know, all of the academic scholars who have studied the Rambam have said likewise. Furthermore, even if there are talmudic sources for the substance of Rambam’s Principles, this does not mean that there is compelling talmudic sources to explain why the Rambam categorized these particular beliefs as Principles, denial of which is heresy. Often, we must look to his philosophical assumptions, which he regarded as part and parcel of Torah, to explain why he raised certain beliefs to the level of Principles while others did not. We must also look to his philosophical assumptions to understand why he read certain talmudic passages the way he did, and was thus led to formulate his Principles in a certain fashion.

I would also like readers to examine the following statement by the rabbinic scholar, R. Reuven Amar.[24] Based on what Grossman writes, I assume that he will regard this as equally blasphemous to anything I have written.

דאם כי ודאי אין חכמת הרמב”ם ז”ל כשאר בעלי החכמה ובעלי הדעה וגדולה חכמתו ושיעור קומתו ולבו רחב כאולם בכל חכמה ומדע מ”מ בעיקרי האמונה אין דבריו כמפי הגבורה אחר שלא קיבלם איש מפי איש עד משה רבינו ע”ה כי אם משיקול דעתו ובינתו וכפי שהודה וכתב בעצמו בהקדמת ח”ג מהמורה נבוכים, בענין מעשה המרכבה ומעשה בראשית ועיין בזה במגדל עוז פ”א מיסודי התורה ה”י וכן ראיתי בספר שומר אמונים (להרב ר’ יוסף אירגס זצ”ל) בויכוח ראשון סעיף ח’ ט’ שהתבסס על זה

Regarding point 2, Grossman sees it as problematic to say that the Rambam created the Principles to advance his philosophical conclusions. Yet this is a perfectly reasonable approach. After all, wouldn’t the Rambam want the Jewish people to hold philosophical truths, and what better way to achieve this than to put these truths in the form of Principles of Faith that everyone has to know? This approach is commonly held among scholars of the Rambam. As for the accusation that I say that the Rambam created the Principles for polemical purposes, I never say that with regard to the Principles as a whole. I do say this about aspects of two of the Principles, and I will return to this in a future post. The fact that I am being attacked on this matter is ironic, as my approach is actually more conservative than what is found in almost all works of modern scholarship on the Rambam.

As for point 3, I do not say that “many authorities thought the Principles” were wrong. What I do say is that many authorities thought that individual Principles were mistaken. By writing “the Principles,” Grossman leads readers to think that I said that many authorities rejected the Principles in their entirety, but all readers of my book know that this is not the case.[25]

I want to conclude with the following from R. Mordechai Willig, which has some relevance to my discussion and which I think readers will find of interest.[26] R. Willig’s entire shiur is worth listening to, but for the purpose of this post I only want to cite one small section.

As we know, not all the Ikrei Emunah were etched in stone without any dispute from the beginning of time. . . . Are in fact the Rambam’s Thirteen Principles accepted le-halakhah for the last X hundred of years and you can’t go against it, or perhaps not? There are those therefore who are trying to get around certain of his Ikrim. The Sefer of Albo himself who wrote the Sefer Ikrim didn’t accept all the Thirteen of the Rambam. One might argue that we don’t really find anywhere to my knowledge significant dispute about the other Ikrim of the Rambam, but perhaps not all Thirteen were accepted, but we’ll call [it] Twelve and a Half. The first part of Ikkar number 5 was accepted, and the second part which is so complex, perhaps it never really was accepted. So there are Thirteen Principles but one of them, number 5, we only accept part of the Principle, not the entirety of the Principle. . . . It’s against the Rambam, but this half of that Principle was never accepted. But the rest was accepted.

In the next post I will continue with my response (and it looks like it will take many posts before I am finished, unless I first tire of this endeavor).


[1] Sipurim me-ha-Hayyim: Kitzur Shivhei ha-Ben Ish Hai (Jerusalem, 2009), p. 47.
[2] See here.
[3] See e.g., here.
[4] See R. Kaduri, Divrei Yitzhak, pp. 173-174.
[5] See here.
[6] See here.
[7] Yorma Bilu, Saints’ Impresarios: Dreamers, Healers, and Holy Men in Israel’s Urban Periphery, trans. Haim Watzman (Brighton, MA, 2010), p. 65.
[8] “Perek be-Hithavut ha-‘Olam ha-Torah’ be-Artzot ha-Berit le-Ahar ha-Milhamah,” Hakirah 26 (2019), pp. 31-52.
[9] See, however, Solomon Buber, Anshei Shem (Crakow, 1895), pp. 28-29, who is skeptical.
[10] Peri Hayyim (Tel Aviv, 1983), p. 149.
[11] Kelilat Yofi, pp. 41a-b. See also Buber, Anshei Shem, p. 32.
[12] Greenwald, Otzar Nehmad, p. 117.
[13] There is also a section of this cemetery where hundreds of Christians are buried. The Nazis refused to allow these people to be buried elsewhere as under the Nuremberg Laws they were regarded as Jewish (and halakhically, some of these people would indeed have been Jewish).
[14] Shapira, Divrei Torah, vol. 5, no. 27.
[15] Ugat Eliyahu (Livorno, 1730), no. 22
[16] Limits appeared in 2004. I wonder if it is only very negative reviews that come out so long after a book’s appearance. Another example is Haym Soloveitchik’s review of Isadore Twersky’s revised edition of Rabad of Posquiéres. The book appeared in 1980 and the review appeared in 1991. See Soloveitchik, “History of Halakhah – Methodological Issues: A Review essay of I. Twersky’s Rabad of Posquiéres,” Jewish History 5 (Spring 1991), pp. 75-124.
[17] Grossman did correspond with me and ask me questions which I tried to the best of my ability to answer. He also challenged some of what I said in his emails to me. Yet I have to say that I am quite hurt that he was not honest with me in this correspondence. On July 16, 2018, he began his correspondence with me by telling me that he was writing an article on the Thirteen Principles. In this email he also said that my book was well-written. (Buttering me up, I guess.) On July 17 he wrote to me: “Thank you for your communication! You are helping me tremendously.” I guess I was helping him to bury me. Also on this day he wrote to me about his article: “maybe you can help me with the writing!” I am sorry to see now that this was all part of a grand deception on his part.

In his email to me of October 11, 2018, Grossman wrote that he completed his article on the Thirteen Principles, “and have cited you in a few places.” Is this how an honest scholar operates, by deceiving the person he has been emailing with? I responded to his questions and explained how I view things, as I do with anyone who contacts me. I would have done the same thing had he been honest with me and told me that he was writing an article devoted to disputing my ideas. His friendly demeanor in his emails led me to assume that we were engaged in a form of scholarly collaboration in trying to understand important texts and ideas. So imagine my surprise to see that contrary to what he wrote to me that he cited me “in a few places,” the entire review is an attempt to tear me down. Furthermore, Grossman has been telling people that he wants his article to destroy my reputation as a scholar. What type of person treats his fellow Jew in this fashion?
[18] In a wide-ranging article which deals among other things with R. Kook’s view of heresy, the important scholar R Yoel Bin-Nun explains why R. Kook rejected the Rambam’s approach to heresy. R. Bin Nun also states that if you take what the Rambam says seriously, the Rambam himself, if he were alive today and saw how theological matters are no longer regarded as subject to conclusive proofs, would not regard people who disagreed with his Principles as heretics. In R. Bin Nun’s words (emphasis added):

שיטת הרמב”ם ברורה: יסוד שתלוי באמונה, ואין בו הוכחה שכלית, וכל החכמים מתווכים עליו, אי אפשר להגדיר את מי שאינו מאמין בו כ”כופר” או כ”מין”. עצם העובדה שהדבר נתון בוויכוח שכלי בין החכמים מאפשר ומחייב לבנות את עולם האמונה, אך אינו מאפשר לשפוט ולדון את הכופרים. רק ודאות שכלית מוחלטת מאפשרת לדון אדם כמזיד בשאלות של אמונה וידיעה

“Kahal Shogeg u-Mi she-Hezkato Shogeg o To’eh: Hiloniyim ve-Hiloniyut be-Halakhah,” Akdamot 10 (2000), p. 263.

In other words, according to R. Bin-Nun, based on the Rambam himself there is no justification today for calling people heretics because they reject one (or more) of the Thirteen Principles. (When he refers to hakhamim disputing matters, he is not referring to Torah scholars, but the general scientific-intellectual world.) Whether R. Bin Nun is correct in his analysis of the Rambam is not my purpose at present (and I do not find his position compelling). I only wish to show that this outstanding scholar presents a very tolerant view, one that rejects the Thirteen Principles as determining who is a heretic. I wonder, though, how far he would take this. Lots of scientists and philosophers argue for atheism, and there is no absolute proof for God’s existence. Does this mean that now even atheists are not to be regarded as heretics?
[19] For one example, R. Pinhas Lintop, see here. I write as follows in this post:

Naor calls attention to R. Lintop’s view of Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles. Unfortunately, I did not know of this when I wrote my book on the subject. R. Lintop is no fan of Maimonides’ concept of dogma or of Maimonides’ intellectualism in general. He rejects the notion that otherwise pious Jews can be condemned as heretics merely because they don’t accept Maimonides’ principles. He even makes the incredible statement that of the great rabbis, virtually all of them have, at the very least, been in doubt about one fundamental principle.

הנה לא הניח בן לאברהם . . . כמעט אין אחד מראשי חכמינו, החכמים הצדיקים כו’ כו’, אשר לא יטעה או יסתפק באחד משרשי הדת

Are we to regard them all as heretics? Obviously not, which in R. Lintop’s mind shows the futility of Maimonides’ theological exercise, which not only turned Judaism into a religion of catechism, but also indoctrinated people to believe that one who does not affirm certain dogmas is to be persecuted. According to R. Lintop, this is a complete divergence from the talmudic perspective.

Lintop further states that there is no point in dealing with supposed principles of faith that are not explicit in the Talmud.

הגידה נא, אחי, בלא משוא פנים, היש לנו עוד פנים לדון על דבר עקרים ויסודות את אשר לא נזכרו לנו בהדיא במשנה וגמרא?

As for Maimonides’ view that one who is mistaken when it comes to principles of faith is worse than one who actually commits even the worst sins, R. Lintop declares that “this view is very foreign to the spirit of the sages of the Talmud, who did not know philosophy.” As is to be expected, he also cites Rabad’s comment that people greater than Maimonides were mistaken when it came to the matter of God’s incorporeality.

[20] In R. Meir Mazuz’s recent Bayit Ne’eman, no. 196 (13 Shevat 5780), p. 2, he writes about the Ralbag:

וזו הסיבה שרלב”ג פירש דברים מוזרים

Does this mean that R. Mazuz was mocking Ralbag? R. Joseph Zechariah Stern writes (Zekher Yehosef, Even ha-Ezer, no. 61, p. 237):

ועיקר דברי חוט השני הוא נגד סוגיא דעלמא . . . ואשר בכלל דבריו זרים

Was R. Stern mocking anyone?

Eliezer Waldenberg writes about R. Abraham Halevi, author of Ginat Veradim (Tzitz Eliezer, vol. 8, no. 15, p. 80):

כי בתוך דברי התשובה שם וכן בתוך דברי התשובה שלפניה יש שם ג”כ דבריו [!] מוזרים מאד שכמעט קשה לשומעם

Was R. Waldenberg mocking anyone? And what about when rabbis use even harsher language, saying things like אינו נכון כלל? Does this mean that they are mocking the view they are rejecting? Everyone who studies rabbinic literature knows that nothing could be further from the truth. Stating that a view is strange or unusual, and even rejecting a view in harsh terms, has nothing to do with mocking.
[21] That rabbinic scholars often do not study Maimonides’ philosophy is nothing new. R. Jacob Emden noted that if the rabbinic scholars knew philosophy, they would have protested Maimonides’ proof for God’s existence in Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Yesodei ha-Torah 1:5, as it is based on the eternity of the world. See Birat Migdal Oz (Warsaw, 1912), p. 20a:

כי הנה המופת הראשון שעשה ע”ז הדרוש בח”ב מס’ [מספרו] הנ”ל מתנועה נצחית תדיר’ (והיא שמצאה חן בעיניו והציגה לבדה עמנו פה בס’ המדע) לקוחה מאריסטו מניח הקדמות, לא יודה בה בעל הדת שהיא בנויה על פנת החדוש. לו ידעו הרבנים התלמודיים בפילוסיפיא לא היו שותקים לו בכאן

[22] Perhaps the “mocking” he sees is the beginning of the paragraph where I write:

To return to the point already mentioned above, if there is one thing Orthodox Jews the world over acknowledge, it is that Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles are the fundamentals of Jewish faith. The common knee-jerk reaction is that there is room for debate in matters of faith, as long as one does not contradict any of these principles.

I then cite a number of great figures who speak of the centrality of the Thirteen Principles (including the Hazon Ish). I used the expression “knee-jerk” as synonymous with “instinctive,” but even stronger, in that the reaction to any divergence from the Principles is strong and immediate, coming from a place of feeling which is prior to any intellectual reaction. Needless to say, there is no mocking.

Regarding statements about the centrality of the Thirteen Principles, let me repeat what I have said elsewhere, and which I will return to in future posts, that the expression “the Thirteen Principles” is more of a shorthand statement about correct belief rather than an affirmation of the Principles themselves in all of their particulars. To give an example of what I mean, it is easy to find statements of rabbis stating that one should not engage with ideas or texts that diverge from the Thirteen Principles. This is a shorthand way of saying that you should not study heresy. However, when the rabbis say that you should not study matters that diverge from the Principles, do any of them mean that you should not study Rashi’s commentary to Deuteronomy 34:5, as it presents a talmudic view about the authorship of the final verses of the Torah that is in opposition to Maimonides’ Eighth Principle? Certainly not, which shows that what Torah scholars mean when they speak of the “Thirteen Principles” is not necessarily what the masses understand by this.
[23] “Rabbi Jacob Emden: Life and Major Works” (unpublished doctoral dissertation, Harvard University, 1988)), p. 409.
[24] Re’ah Besamim, p. 40, appendix to his edition of Besamim Rosh (Jerusalem, 1984). Among R. Amar’s other works, mention should be made of his five volume Minhagei ha-Hida.
[25] In Limits, p. 4, I refer to “those scholars who thought that Maimonides’ Principles were wrong.” While in the context of the book, everyone knew that I meant “certain of Maimonides’ Principles” (namely, the ones I discuss), now that I see how the sentence could be misused by being quoted out of context, I wish that I had been more exacting in my language.
[26] See his shiur, “Selichos: Halacha, Hashkafa and Teshuva,” available here, at minute 45:30.

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190 thoughts on “Cemeteries and Response to Criticism

  1. Thanks for your well-reasoned and clear response to Grossman which I have been waiting for since the new Dialogue came out. Will you be writing a response to Shmuel Philip’s book Judaism Reclaimed where he devotes two chapters to attacking your book?

  2. Yes, I will. It won’t be as hard as this post, which was the hardest one I ever wrote. People told me I had to write it, but it was incredibly painful for me to have to write against Grossman, who is also a person with feelings, even though he delighted in mocking me. I have never before had to respond to such a personal attack, and I hope I did so properly. If it was just his insults I would have let it go — נעלבים ואינם עולבים, but since it had to do with the proper portrayal of what I wrote, it was important to set the matter straight. I will be continuing to respond to his review, going through each page.

  3. It should be helpful to list as many of the personal attacks as I could find in the review:

    > Interpretations of difficulties in the writings of earlier authorities offered by world-class Talmudic scholars throughout the ages are cavalierly dismissed as “obviously incorrect,” “forced” or “re-interpretations.” Though these judgments are often made without proof, this academic poses as the ultimate authority, with sufficient wisdom to dismiss or accept anything in his purview… Professor Marc Shapiro’s The Limits of Orthodox Theology: Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles Reappraised is an example of this sort of scholarship.

    > Shapiro, who mocks the opinions of Rabbeynu Nissim, R. Moshe Feinstein, Chazon Ish, Arizal and R. Ya’akov Emden, among others…

    > Shapiro does not refrain from adducing explicit Talmudic passages as contradictions to the Rambam, presuming that the Rambam overlooked or ignored them

    > Shapiro is unimpressed by all these arguments; nor is he averse to dismissing Rambam’s opinion based on his, Shapiro’s, own reading of a Talmudic passage, even where there is no doubt that the Rambam had a different reading for it. An academic, he obviously feels, is privileged to interpret the Talmud better than the Rambam was, even where this presumption leads to bizarre conclusions.

    > Although he is to be commended for the amount of research he has invested into his work—the citations he has amassed are voluminous—it seems that many of the references were culled from secondary sources without examining the originals.

    > However, in his haste to cast Rambam as the inventor of the Principles of Jewish belief, Shapiro seems oblivious to the many areas in Talmud where… Contrary to Shapiro’s hasty assumption,

    > Shapiro indicates that he is unaware of the structure of the Mishneh Torah.

    > In another example of the same hubris towards a giant of Torah scholarship, Shapiro, on p. 37, asserts…

  4. What was the point of Grossman’s condescension? Was that supposed to sway minds? We’re supposed to think, “Look, this guy is so confident he must be right?” I hope this isn’t telling about Dialogue in general (although I fear it is).

    1. Our dogma is divine and anybody who questions it must be evil and must be attacked. That’s the approach in Grossman’s world even though over there they claim to be dedicated to intellectual pursuits. In reality they are anti-intellectual or pseudo intellectual at best.

  5. It’s inaccurate to say that it is “inconceivable” that Rambam overlooked Talmudic passages. The Rambam himself writes that he forgot texts, and his son writes that as well.

      1. I wouldn’t attempt to reason with him. I believe there is a reason he is harping on the one point in the entire rebuttal that is somewhat subjective (what constitutes disrespect) rather than on the entire rest of the rebuttal which notes that Grossman completely mischaracterized Shapiro’s entire book. The goal is an ad hominem attack on Shapiro. Once Shapiro is dismissed as “disrespectful” and “radical,” then people with objectively incorrect views can breathe a sigh of relief knowing that they don’t need to reckon with Shapiro’s evidence. (Of course, even accepting that Shapiro is evil or disrespectful doesn’t invalidate his work. Facts are pesky things, and delegitimizing people who present them doesn’t change that. But expecting intellectual honesty from David’s crowd would be asking for far too much).
        Furthermore, any Dialogue with him (pun intended) reinforces the notion that Grossman’s critique is debatable (rather than simply wrong and libelous).
        As the old adage goes, don’t feed the trolls.

  6. A request for all readers:

    Please do not say anything negative about Grossman. I said my piece, that which I thought was necessary, and that is enough. We must always strive to walk the high path. Thank you.

    Marc Shapiro

  7. In case it wasn’t clear, I mean please don’t leave any negative comments about Grossman. The Seforim Blog is almost unique in that the comments have always focused on substance, not on personalities or attacking people (which unfortunately is found so often on other sites).

  8. Thank you for your interesting article about cemeteries and those who are (and aren’t) buried therein. I would like to add to your discussion of the gravestone for the Ben Ish Chai on Har Hazeisim – I have been there myself and seen it with my own eyes – a small point. Rather than trying to find the rhyme and reason for the gravedigger’s actions there, we can give a simple explanation. Namely that the Ben Ish Chai actually was brought somehow out other to Har Hazeisim that night! Whether that means his body or his neshomo I cannot say. In fact, the Arizal writes that the souls of the tzaddikim come straight after their petira to Eretz Yisroel. So that is a simple explanation, and the most simple explanation, for the gravestone of Reb Yosef Chayim of Baghdad that we see today on the Mount of Olives.

  9. On the one hand, I ‘d say the Dialogue article does not warrant such a detailed response, on the other, it’s a pleasure to read your posts on these subjects. Thanks Marc!

  10. It is shameful that a chareidi journal agrees to publish such an article. Where are the editors??!! I fear the answer to this question…
    Bravo, R’ Marc for your response. R’ Grossman has awakened a sleeping tiger.

    1. This is a question I would very much like answered. To what extent much does this article reflect on the rabbinic editorial board of Dialogue?

  11. Although your argument that it is basically impossible to really “disprove” a theological view of the Rambam is well taken, I would just point out that to a person with Grossman’s perspective it would be possible. If you could demonstrate that the Rambam is at odds with the Talmud or other authoritative texts, in his view that would be essentially disproving the Rambam (even in the sphere of theology).

  12. His is not the only standing monument. In fact, right across the street is Rav Gershon Kitover, the brother in law of the Baal Shem Tov. His monument is also standing erect.

  13. The old cemetery in Tzfas is full of Disney type “Kevarim”. They seem to add new ones every year.

    Another good one is “Kever Shmuel Hanavi” in Yerushalayim and the Kever of the Ramban in Chevron

    1. Well, no one really knows where the Ramban is buried. Possibilities include Chevron (right outside the Mearat HaMachpela), Akko, or Har HaZeitim.

      As to Shmuel HaNavi, the second is in Ramle, probably due to a confusion of Ramallah and Ramle.

  14. Regarding “showing disrespect” to rabbinic greats by noting that that their occasional strange statements are strange, the yeshivish approach is to instead choose from the following menu options: 1) Deny that they said it, asserting that an errant editor inserted the relevant passage. 2) Deny that they meant it. Claim that they meant something else even if there is no textual basis for such a claim. 3) Assert that we “cannot understand the intent of the passage,” thus shutting down any study of the relevant text.

    Although on the surface these approaches seem more respectful, on a deeper level they are much less respectful. Such approaches treat rabbinic greats as too fragile to be subjected to actual scrutiny. They suggest that any critical appraisal of rabbinic works, even the mere suggestion that they contain strange material that isn’t even necessarily wrong, threatens the image of those works. In this model, problematic material can only be jettisoned, as the practitioners of this model ultimately don’t believe that rabbinic greats are of a high enough caliber to be perceived positively when exposed to the light of critical scrutiny.
    Inasmuch as Grossman is serious in his critique, his perception of the “mocking of R. Feinstein” by merely citing him without comment on p. 159, is understandable in this light. Respect of rabbinic greats, his school asserts, means covering up their occasional dubious statements, not openly quoting them.

    Not only does the yeshivish approach implicitly insult rabbinic greats by implying that they can’t withstand scrutiny, it also fails to appreciate their true greatness that can only be perceived using the academic approach. For example, critical study of the Mishneh Torah (that shows the work’s minor flaws such as the occasional miscited verse), such as that of Isadore Twersky, allows one to marvel at the work and appreciate how unique it is, and the degree of mastery of rabbinic literature that Rambam possessed. Similarly, critical study of Rashi’s oeuvre, such as that of Haym Soloveitchik, reveals Rashi’s unique mastery of the Talmud, and the revolutionary features of his commentary. Simply reducing Rambam and Rashi to magical creatures, whose works were the direct products of ruach hakodesh, and are thus outside of the purview of critical study, seems more “respectful,” but it actually makes it impossible to appreciate their stature and the scope of their achievements.

    1. Unfortunately, Dr. Shapiro’s treatment of the Rambam’s principles does not exactly elicit such feelings of marvel and grandeur, nor greater appreciation of the Rambam’s stature and scope of his achievements…
      Had it done so, I suspect the criticism of his book would have been much more muted.

      Instead the book was widely perceived as an attempt to “take down” the Rambam’s ikkarim from their high pedestal–which comes across as mean-spirited and with a pre-meditated anti-traditional agenda.

      1. You are just repeating claims about how the book was widely perceived, already addressed by Shapiro.
        I have read the book, and much other material by Shapiro, and I cannot imagine how anyone who read the book could possibly come away with the impression that it is mean-spirited towards Rambam.
        Like any work, it attempts to present a thesis that is in some way novel; either to a lay audience, or to a scholarly audience. By definition, something novel will be surprising to some, and in that sense “un-traditional” in that it contradicts their preconceived notions that were themselves reflective of “tradition.” But in the same sense, every maggid shiur whose goal is to present some novel approach to a sugya is anti-traditional. In the latter case too there is a goal, stated or not, of providing a new take on the corpus of rabbinic literature.
        Many people assume that Rambam’s principles lack any disputants. The thesis is that some have disputed some principles. This is not different than a maggid shiur suggesting that some halachic opinion of Rambam generally thought to be universally held, actually seems to be a matter of dispute. There is nothing “mean-spirited” about that.
        Like the maggid shiur whose goal is rarely to make a final determination halacha l’maaseh of which Rishon to follow, but rather to simply exposit the views of various Rishonim, Shapiro’s goal is not to address what one should or should not believe, but simply to document the views of various traditional authorities. V’tu lo midi.

        1. Your comparison of Dr. Shapiro’s scholarship and total career trajectory to a maggid shiur who occasionally presents a novel, non-conventional approach to a sugya is laughable.
          If said maggid shiur would consistently present such non-conventional shiurim as his defining characteristic, he would probably not find a position in a traditional yeshivah.

          1. I guess then that Rav Chaim Brisker was a conventional Maggid Shiur who only occasionally presented a novel non-conventional approach? RYBS? R Shurkin? That’s news to everyone. [Prof Shapiro is an academic, not a Magid Shiur, but your premise is pretty shaky]

            1. You know David, on further reflection, I think you are absolutely right. Rav Chaim Brisker and Dr. Marc Shapiro are totally analogous. It’s so obvious to me me now after you pointed this out that I wonder why I didn’t realize it sooner.
              In fact, I’m sure Dr. Shapiro would have no problem getting a position in a yeshiva like Toras Moshe.

              1. You were the one who made the analogy. I guess you no longer believe it: “If said maggid shiur would consistently present such non-conventional shiurim as his defining characteristic, he would probably not find a position in a traditional yeshivah.”

      2. “Shapiro’s treatment of the Rambam’s principles does not exactly elicit such feelings of marvel and grandeur”. Actually it’s one of the best books I’ve ever read. There is good stuff one every single page. The context definitely helps to get an idea of what the novelty/Chiddush of Rambam’s work. This is something that the GR”A recognized, although he didn’t like it.

    1. I look forward to reading your response to Phillips’s more thoughtful critiques. They don’t seem to be based on the charedi worldview (the book has an approbation from R Jonathan Sacks) and the author appears familiar with and quotes broadly from academic works.

      One chapter of his critiques is currently available to read on his website http://www.judaismreclaimed.com

      1. When people use the expression י״ג עיקרים, they mean it like the words שמונה עשרה. It doesn’t necessarily mean the Rambam’s, it is like the non-Jewish expression ‘gospel truth’.

        Writing that Reb Moshe offered an opinion about something he didn’t know, is disrespectful, albeit not mocking.

        Otherwise, I enjoyed your rebuttal, and all Charedi thinkers I know would be in agreement with you, that the Maimonidean principles are not as accepted as the siddur printers make them out to be.a

    2. “Judaism Reclaimed” is certainly not as strident, but it IS just as personal.
      As the book’s title indicates, and as is seen in the chapters against Shapiro (under the guise of writing about corporealism) and against “Bible Critics,” the goal of those chapters was to “reclaim” Judaism by tearing down other people.

      And in using Shapiro as a proxy for tearing down jewish studies academicians in general, Grossman and Phillips had less homework to do. Given that Shapiro’s book was published in 2003, they merely had to piggyback on critiques already published.

      In Phillips’ case, those chapters diminish what is an otherwise commendable book, with nice deroshos based on the author’s understanding of rationalistic sources not commonly quoted in Orthodox writing these days. (Its title, “Judaism Reclaimed” also refers to reclaiming Judaism from the anti-rational monopoly, which is commendable.)

  15. Regarding two graves for one person, Prof. Yaakov Spiegel called my attention to Saul Lieberman’s comments in the Alexander Marx Jubilee Volume, p. 312 (see note 146).

  16. Kudos to Dr. Shapiro for defending yourself from what is a “gross” mischaracterization of your work. Grossman’s mischaracterization of your book is way over the line, and rather infantile.

  17. As is so often the case, a lot of the disagreement comes down to the difference in tone between academic and “yeshivish” writing. They will often bristle at an academic term not intended to be degrading, but not seen as sufficiently self-negating by yeshivish writers.
    I recall an instance when a yeshivish writer took great umbrage at the term “ahistorical”, thinking that it basically meant “lie”!
    (That being said, a lot of frum writing does tend to be overly dramatic, snarky and adolescently sarcastic.)

      1. No. Like the various midrasim that contradict each other, for example, how old Balaam was when he died. They can not all be historically correct, but each has its own intended deeper meaning. And BTW, I am not related to any Herschel Grossman.

  18. What one considers mocking or disrespectful in the yeshivah world is vastly different than how it is perceived in the academic world.
    (Rabbi Grossman probably used the term “mocking” when he really meant “disrespect”.) Once this is understood, most or Dr. Shapiro’s bewilderment evaporates.

    This is part of the problem with academics writing critically about revered rabbinic figures in general. Especially when ascribing less-than altruistic motives behind their positions or arguments. (i.e. “He did X to promote his philosophical view”)
    You can’t even refer to a rabbi by his last name without evoking a sense of disrespect in the mind of a traditionalist!
    Find me any sefer written in the traditional camp that tries to systematically critique and undermine the (presumed) authoritative position of a universally revered rishon. You won’t find one. The very endeavor is deemed disrespectful.
    So even if you can find some parallel language in traditionalist writing when critiquing other rabbis, it is taken more generously when there
    is a context of overall respect.

    In the traditional mindset, honor of the Sages is literally equated with the honor of the Torah itself.
    So if an academic wants to check if his critical statements about revered rabbinic personalities are objectionable or not, try replacing the human subject with the Torah and see how it reads.

    1. This is correct: Rabbi Grossman probably used the term “mocking” when he really meant “disrespect”. But it’s not a throwaway parenthetical comment. Where are the editors?
      Words matter; especially those that heighten the offense being described.

    2. How about when the Gemara states that Ploni told an untruth (lie?) to further a specific aim? Is that similarly disrespectful in the eyes of the supposedly traditional camp?

    3. “Find me any sefer written in the traditional camp that tries to systematically critique and undermine the (presumed) authoritative position of a universally revered rishon. You won’t find one. The very endeavor is deemed disrespectful.”
      Hasagos ha-Raavad

      1. wfb – very good, although presumably, Kornreich would respond that at the time the Rambam wasn’t quite “universally revered.”

          1. The opposite is true. Hasagos are certainly critiquing “according to a fixed plan or system” (the definition of “systematic”).

            1. Are we talking about the same hasagos?
              And I will also add that in the Raavad’s time the Rambam was certainly not universally revered. They were contemporaries!
              So your point is moot anyway.

      2. I can think of Baal Hamaor on the Rif, of Milkhamos on the Maor, of Bedeq Habayis on Toras Habayis, of Mishmeres Habayis on Bedeq…

    4. “Find me any sefer written in the traditional camp that tries to systematically critique and undermine the (presumed) authoritative position of a universally revered rishon. You won’t find one. The very endeavor is deemed disrespectful.”

      Baal Ha-Maor, on the Rif?
      Sefer haIkarim, on the Rambam?
      Rashbam al haTorah (dismissing Rashi’s concept of peshat)?

      1. And, I would add, that Shapiro’s book was not about the Rambam (or against the Rambam), but about the RECEPTION of the Rambam.

        It is a bibliographic work, memorializing what others had said. Rishonim did not write those types of works, nor do Acharonim. That is, however, one of the things that academic researchers do.
        Yes, one might argue that the presentation should be balanced, but in Shapiro’s case, the book was about documenting the opposition, which was revelatory for almost all readers.

        If someone else wants to write a book showing how the Ikkarim came to be broadly accepted, as Eric Lawee did with Rashi, that would be a great idea. But don’t blame Shapiro for not having written it. You want such a book? Write it yourself!

      2. Have you actually read Sefer haIkarim?
        Can you honestly say it is a systematic critique when he devoted only one short chapter of about 6 pages to address the Rambam’s formulation?

        Does the Rashbam systematically cite Rashi to argue with his commentary or does he just give a single introduction about his differences with Rashi and the rest is just a different commentary?

        And I believe the Rif was not universally revered as an authority–at least in Provence– at the time of the Baal Ha-maor.

        1. The Rashbam argues on Rashi’s pshat on almost every page (see Lockshin’s notes to his edition). If you learn the Rashbam by itself and not in dialogue with Rashi, you missed the boat.

          Have you actually read Shapiro’s book? As most of your comments only make sense if you have not read it and merely relying on Grossman’s critique

    5. If I understand your comments, you’re saying that Shapiro’s book is disrespectful according to Yeshiva standards. This is because it seeks to undermine the authority of a universally-accepted Rishon.
      And Grossman’s article (personal attack), distorting what Shapiro said, is an appropriate response — a response which, in itself, may not be critiqued, as if Grossman were a universally-accepted Rishon?

    6. Great idea – let’s replace critical statements about revered rabbinic personalities with the Torah itself and see how it reads. For example, if someone would write: …He was unable to take Abarbanel seriously because he did not perceive him as one of the chachmei haMesorah….” (Try putting “the Torah itself” in that sentence and see how it reads.) I wonder who wrote such a disrespectful comment (can’t take him seriously? – seriously?) about a revered rabbinic personality like Abarbanel. Was that Shapiro? Actually, that statement was written by R’ Moshe Meiselman, p. 656 of TCS.

      1. I wonder if Shapiro ever wrote something so disrespectful about a respected Rabbi. Can’t take him seriously? About the great Abarbanel? I can’t get over the cavalier language.

        1. “I wonder if Shapiro ever wrote something so disrespectful about a respected Rabbi. ”

          Shlomo, can we get real?
          Here is what Dr. Shapiro has written about Rabbi Y.Y. Weinberg:

          In at least nine passages3 he implies that Rabbi Weinberg was dishonest, or economical with the truth; in four4 , he dismisses him as a superficial thinker; he speaks of him5 as being contemptuous of the Jewish masses, and portrays him6 as a petty, almost paranoid, personality (“full of bitterness at not getting what he deserved,” “eternally (!) suspicious,” and a person who “saw enemies at almost every corner”). Rabbi Weinberg, in his view, was “criminally optimistic”7 about, and an apologist for, the Nazi regime in its early years, or even for Hitler (no less).8 He “absolved the Nazis of all blame,”and “sympathized with the Nazi movement.”9 Finally — in a passage which can only be described as breathtaking10 — he characterizes some of Rabbi Weinberg’s comments on the moral state of the Jewish nation as “almost anti-Semitic,” and compares them11 with a quotation from Heinrich von Treitschke. Von Treitschke, of course, was the man who justified antiSemitic campaigns as “a brutal but natural reaction” of the masses, and who coined that felicitous phrase, “the Jews are our misfortune.”

          I took all this from Rabbi Berel Berkovits’ review in Jewish Action found online and I agree wholeheartedly with his conclusion:

          “In the light of these remarks, I have some difficulty with the Professor’s sensitivity. Is he entitled to a greater degree of consideration than that which he accords his subject?”

          1. A few points:
            1. Should I take your response as concurring that the words of your rebbi, R’ Meiselman, were way out of line, just that Shapiro’s were worse? That concession is far more interesting to me than anything I have to say below.
            2. As you point out, from the perspective of the academic, he is doing nothing wrong by writing the way he does. R’ Meiselman writes as a traditionalist, with the utmost respect for his uncle, Rambam, Ramban, Rashba etc. For some reason, Abarbanel is bizarrely singled out for disrespect (or as some would dishonestly describe it: “mockery”). From R’ Meiselman’s perspective, it is wrong to write that way about one of the revered figures of the past, in which case he wronged Abarbanel.
            3. It’s hard to judge Shapiro’s offense without the actual citations.

            1. I am only responsible for what I write just as you are responsible only for what you write. I didn’t mention the Abarbanel or Rav Meiselman.
              But I’ll remind you what you wrote:
              “I wonder if Shapiro ever wrote something so disrespectful about a respected Rabbi. ”

              Do you at least have the guts to admit that Shapiro has written worse things than anything Rav Meiselman has written about the Abarbanel–by many orders of magnitude?
              Are you aware that as a professional historian, Shapiro literally makes a living by saying and writing such disrespectful (to put it rather mildly) assessments of character of respected rabbis (all of it backed by careful research of course)?

              1. Firstly: You won’t judge R’ Meiselman’s words but you want me to judge Shapiro’s? Very sensible.
                Secondly: I already said it’s hard to judge without citations. I will not form an opinion based on the estimations of R’ Berel Berkovitz. A few things on your/his list are actually silly. For example: [He was] an apologist for, the Nazi regime in its early years, or even for Hitler (no less).8 He “absolved the Nazis of all blame,”and “sympathized with the Nazi movement.” IF R’ Weinberg actually did that (not expressing an opinion on that), it’s disrespectful to say so? (If he didn’t then Shapiro’s saying he did would be an offense far worse than disrespect – that would be libelous).

                1. Whoops, I didn’t say that right: “Do you at least have the guts to admit” that R’ Meiselman wrote something way out of line? You want me to condemn Shapiro, but you won’t say a word of judgment about R’ Meiselman. I’m sensing a double standard.

                  1. See my comment at the very bottom quoting from R. Daniel Korobkin(and other sources):

                    “Dismissing or de-legitimizing Dr. Shapiro’s work is a disservice to that significant minority of our bnei and bnot Torah who are true theology seekers”

                    I don’t have to agree with every single thing Dr. Shapiro writes to say that he has made a valuable contribution with his writings.

                    –Shades of Gray

                    1. If YU “shuts down its Bible Department”, who will produce scholars who could write “Koren Tanakh of the Land of Israel”, reviewed today on Torah Musing, representing an ongoing need. Neither the yehivos represented by Dialogue Magazine nor those in the kiruv world focus on this.

                      (The article you linked by E. Resnick also quotes from Dr. Shapiro’s book on R. YY Weinberg in the footnote.)

                      R. Adlerstein wrote in the 2015 Klal Perspectives(last footnote) about bible criticism, “ I am not personally aware of a single individual “home grown” within the yeshiva world who can address the issues from a position of strength. But I can easily point to people within the Israeli Dati-Leumi community who are both bnei Torah and conversant with the material.”

                      You could talk about modifying aspects of the YU Bible Department. In response to a problematic article a few months ago by a Jewish Studies professor, R. Steven Burg, now of Aish, wrote in The Commentator, “Why YU Needs a Rosh Yeshiva” , and R. Zev Eleff responded to him there(“Youth and the YU Idea”).

                      –Shades of Gray

                    2. You haven’t responded to what I wrote. I said academicians should not be the ones teaching theology to genuine truth-seekers. Their worldview is poisonous to traditional faith.
                      I did not claim their scholarship –at times– produces no benefit whatsoever.
                      Regarding the benefit of having “home grown” experts to address biblical criticism, I don’t see why it is necessary to put frum Jews’ faith at risk just to get this benefit. We don’t depend on frum biologists to debunk darwinian evolution?
                      Additionally, Dr. Joshuah Berman is a tragic example of someone who looked promising as a defender of Jewish tradition against bible critics but eventually succumbed to heresy himself:
                      http://slifkinchallenge.blogspot.com/2013/12/building-new-theology-on-outliers.html

                    3. I’m having trouble posting here as the Seforim Blog thinks I’m a bot/spam.

                      Even R. Zev Leff, and the end of his Jewish Action review, sees value in Dr. Shapiro’s book for certain individuals(from a different angle, R. Korobkin, in his JA letter which I excerpted from, doesn’t think that every yeshiva student is philosophically equipped to read Limits, and neither does Dr. Shapiro, according to the interview I linked with R. Korobkin).

                      Re. the YU Bible Department and the comparison to training frum biologists , religious studies might be different as they require more complex specialization. Also, it’s a statement that the community is not afraid to deal with the issue. Not everyone in YU needs to take academic bible, but it should be an option, in my opinion.

                      I’m having trouble accessing your website, but Dr. Berman has the introductory chapter and a video interview on the Koren website, so people can judge for themselves. You don’t have to agree with everything any writer says—whether Dr. Shapiro or Dr. Berman– to learn from them. This applies to critiques from Dr. Berman’s Left as well.

                      R. Adlerstein mentioned that he has permission from a Ra’m in the Gush—I think its R. Amnon Bazak– to republish(and tweak) his response to bible criticism (“AJOP 2017: Cynics, Skeptics, Bloggers and the Intellectually Curious – How to Present Genuine Torah Values in a Challenging World”, 26:30, available online). R. Adlerstein also wrote in the Klal Perspectives article I mentioned:

                      “We certainly will not blindly accept any one person’s conclusions or approach. Every idea and approach must be vetted and reviewed by our community’s Torah leaders. But we must also recognize that the yeshiva community has chosen to discourage the sophisticated study of these challenges, and so we need to hear out those who have plowed those fields, and consider which of their approaches can be safely used or modified.”

                      –Shades of Gray

      2. (I should probably make clear: R Meiselman was writing that his uncle R Soloveitchik “couldn’t take Abarbanel seriously.”)

          1. I know RYBS as having been reported as not wanting the Abarbanel as president of YU (for different versions of the story, see “Marc B. Shapiro – Responses to Comments and Elaborations of Previous Posts III ” Seforim Blog, 8/29/08, and“Quoting Christian Bible Commentaries”, Torah Musing, 7/4/06)

            1. I’ve heard the story as well. I don’t know the history behind R’ Soloveitchik’s animus towards Abarbanel nor am I sure that I want to. But I think that R’ Meiselman’s description of it — in print — is shocking, and yes, very disrespectful. I don’t think anyone needs to be told how widely and intensely revered the Abarbanel was and is. He lived on the cusp of the age of the Rishonim and Acharonim, was held in the highest esteem by the gedolei gedolei Acharonim, wrote brilliant, detailed, heavily sourced commentaries on Tanach, deeply thought through subjects most had not, besides for composing numerous other works. He accomplished all of this while experiencing several lifetimes worth of turmoil, difficulty, and responsibility. So what if he didn’t write on Talmudic subjects – how can you write that way about the nesher hagadol, Don Abarbanel?
              (I gave the source above: Torah, Chazal, and Science, p. 656.)

              1. By “source”, I meant was R. Meiselman quoting in his book the YU president story I quoted, or a different comment of RYBS dismissing the Abarbanel?

    7. I do not understand your point at all. According to you, the very endeavor of demonstrating that some rishonim disagreed with either the validity or the importance of some of the 13 principles is by definition “disrespectful” to the Rambam. Why is it not “disrespectful” to, e.g., the Sefer HaIkkarim, to keep his opinions hidden and out of the mainstream?

      1. Obviously, mere disagreement (or merely pointing out that there is disagreement) is not inherently disrespectful in the Yeshivah world. You missed two qualifiers that I included. My proposition is that only with those two qualifiers does the endeavor become disrespectful.
        I’m not saying that Dr. Shapiro did anything morally objectionable by his own standards–which are obviously academic ones and not traditional ones. Unless Dr. Shapiro (or those reading these comments) considers himself traditional, no-one should be taking any offense by my proposition.

  19. I heard Prof. Shapiro speak in Young Israel Beth El of Borough Park this past December on “Judaism and Islam: Some Historical and Halakhic Perspectives”. When introducing Dr. Shapiro, Rabbi Moshe Snow, a talmid of Rav Moshe, acknowledged the supremacy of Torah while clearly seeing a role for the contribution of an academic scholar. Although they might be a minority in Boro Park, I saw in the audience someone who said he was a grandson of a Torah Vodaas rosh yeshiva, as well as three chasidim with long peyos, one of whom held a copy of “The Limits of Orthodox Theology”. The shul sold a raffle to win “Changing the Immutable”.

    The tension between some of the rabbinate’s approach and the academia might be seen in Rav Aharon Feldman’s article about R. Slifkin. Presumably because he was concerned with preserving the straightforward emunah peshutah of his readers, a responsibility of a rabbi, R. Feldman did not disclose the evolution of his position from having originally supporting R. Slifkin, as well as the flaws in the banning process, while an academic would presumably be expected to evaluate this complexity of the issue(one well-known charedi rabbi told me he refused to sign the ban against R. Slifkin).

  20. I was also going to mention the critique in “Judaism Reclaimed” by R. Phillips , which I see someone else did.

    What I think many people want today, is to see the complexity of an issue (and even in kiruv, or defending Orthodoxy from bible criticism and the like, not to over-simplify the opposition). For example, the question in Dialogue Magazine if “Yoatzot halacha is good for the Jews”, as well as women’s Talmud study mentioned there in a footnote, would seem to depend on “which Jews?”(see R. Adlerstein’s article “Yoatzot: An Exchange”, Cross Currents, 11/15). Of course, R. Feldman is entitled to his opinion.

    A model for true dialogue might be seen in a program last May called “Strength in Diversity: The Complementary and Conflicting Flavors of Torat Eretz Yisrael”(available on YU Torah by first removing the words “Strength in Diversity” from the search) sponsored by Bnai Jacob Shaarei Zion, Mizrachi, and other Baltimore shuls. R. Moshe Hauer, now the vice president of the OU, asked Jonathan Rosenblum and R. Moshe Taragin of Yeshivat Har Etzion to begin speaking about what they liked about the other community, which I found novel and refreshing.

  21. (Repost from above)
    Some commentators compared Grossman’s essay to the recent book, “Judaism Reclaimed.”

    That work is certainly not as strident, but it IS just as personal.

    As the book’s title indicates, and as is seen in the chapters against Shapiro (under the guise of writing about corporealism) and against “Bible Critics,” the goal of those chapters was to “reclaim” Judaism by tearing down other people.

    And in using Shapiro as a proxy for tearing down jewish studies academicians in general, Grossman and Phillips had less homework to do. Given that Shapiro’s book was published in 2003, they merely had to piggyback on critiques already published.

    In Phillips’ case, those chapters diminish what is an otherwise commendable book, with nice deroshos based on the author’s understanding of rationalistic sources not commonly quoted in Orthodox writing these days. (Its title, “Judaism Reclaimed” also refers to reclaiming Judaism from the anti-rational monopoly, which is commendable.)

  22. I’m not very familiar with blogs like this, but I heard that Dr. Shapiro responded to R. Grossman’s article here so I logged on. I’m completely confused by the style of debate. Please help me understand what’s going on here.

    Grossman’s article was about 50 pages long. 49.8 of those pages contained reasoned, articulate, and dispassionately presented demonstrations that Shapiro misinterpreted sources or disingenuously omitted material that would have been extremely relevant to his thesis. I didn’t count, but at least a couple dozen such instances are put forth, and the reader is left with the strong feeling that these are representative samples of Shapiro’s methodology in general.

    I would have expected that an academic community that prides itself in rational unidealized intellectualism would be focusing their discussion on actually attempting to defend Dr. Shapiro’s scholarship. Instead, it seems that that the game plan is simply to disparage and discredit.

    It is unfathomable that Dr. Shapiro did not recognize that what Grossman meant by ‘mock’ was ‘disrespect’, nor that virtually every one of the quotes that he cites are indeed considered – by the community which produces and reads Dialogue – a disrespectful way for a college professor to discuss the positions of Gedolei HaAcharonim. Of course, academics don’t necessarily agree to Yeshivish sentiments in these areas, but you’ll have to excuse Grossman for writing to his audience, not yours.

    An indignant comment on the use of the term mock as opposed to disrespect, and perhaps a clarification of the differences between academic and yeshivish convention, would certainly have been in order. But the paragraph after paragraph of whining, accusations of slander and ad hominem – all because of a barely noticeable poorly worded throwaway line buried within pages of actual systematic analysis – smacks of a disingenuous attempt to discredit the opposition before even attempting to challenge him on substance.

    Very unbecoming.

    I look forward to the actual substantive discussion of Rabbi Grossman’s critiques, whenever they shall be available.

    1. An “actual substantive discussion of Rabbi Grossman’s critiques” is actually available right now.
      It’s in Prof Shapiro’s post.

      He says that this post is just the beginning, but I think you misrepresent it (mock?) when characterizing it as merely focusing on what’s called “mock” vs “disrespect.”

    2. I see a lot of substance. Unfortunately, your lack of familiarity with such blogs is at fault here. Substance: He addresses the actual premise of his book, showing how Grossman got it wrong. Substance: he discusses if it would be possible to write a book described by Grossman.
      Substance: he documents various figures who said the ikkarim weren’t necessarily accepted. Substance: he documents the uses of the word “strange.” I could go on. But even better, you could actually read the post in good faith.

    3. Hi.
      If the blog format is unfamiliar, I suggest you print Dr. Shapiro’s post and then look at it side-by-side with the Grossman article. Then forget that it came from a blog and pretend it was published in a journal.

      I think that would be more constructive than dismissing Shapiro’s post due to the comment section, which seems to disappoint you.

      And BTW, the comment section is not an indication of how serious scholars discuss things in scholarly journals, but an example of how random people — some of them highly intelligent and and some of them not — discuss things on blogs. If you find that disturbing, then skip the comments and focus on what Shapiro wrote and don’t paint him with guilt by association; he did not write the comments, other than the ones he signed.

      Hotzlocha!

    4. @Meir Leib D.: Did you read the post? He said that he was addressing the distortions of his purpose an his tone and that disputes over interpretation of source would come in a different post. He responded to much more than 0.2 pages of material from the article.

      He also demonstrates that where Grossman claims that he is mocking an Rabbi, he is sometimes just quoting him with no editorial comment and in other times stating the obvious.

  23. Years ago I read, I am almost sure it was in a Jewish Quarterly Review (ca. 1895) a book review of Kelilas Yofi by Rav Chaim Noson Dembitzer. The review had in some places a sardonic tone, and in other places respect for the amassing such enormous amounts of information. Its author seemed doubtful of the role of traditional rabbis in the world of scholarship. That is as I recall…. dismissed some pearls of rabbinic learning as being of little interest, and pooh-poohed the organizational skills of those lacking academic background.
    The author?
    Solomon Schaechter

  24. I had serious difficulty in parsing the substance of Grossman’s article. He writes for example: “Nothing shows more clearly that the Rambam based his Principles upon the Talmud than the fact that in Hilchos Teshuvah, 18 he lists the various heretics under three classifications: min, apikores and kofer baTorah, all of whom lose their share in the World to Come.” This sentence doesn’t mean much and the following sentences don’t really explain how “nothing shows [this] more clearly than the fact that…” It seems that Grossman thinks that since the Gem. in Rosh Hashanah uses the same terms as Rambam (min, kofer, apikores) that means the Rambam DERIVED his definitions of them (negating various ikkarim) from the Gemara. However, the Gemara (as far as what Grossman documents) provides NO definitions of these terms nor does it even hint to that they are. How then does “nothing show more clearly etc.?” I just don’t see the logic in the argument.
    Next: Grossman takes issue with Shapiro’s implication (real or imagined) that the MB derived from the Rambam’s ikkarim that someone who denies the Resurrection of the Dead may not be a prayer leader. Grossman instead points to the following Tur: A prayer leader who skips two or three words does not have to go back to say them, except for one who does not mention “the Resurrection of the Dead,” for perhaps he is a disbeliever [kofer] in the Resurrection of the Dead, and [the blessing] “Who rebuilds Jerusalem,” for perhaps he does not believe in the Coming of the Mashiach.
    Again, this seems a non-sequitur. How does this prove that one who denies the Resurrection of the Dead is pasul to be a chazan? On the contrary – even though we suspect he might not believe in it, we have him say the words over – instead of simply removing him from the post. Saying the words seems to be enough. These are just two examples, but I found the article very opaque. Am I just not getting it or is the article unclear?

    1. > It seems that Grossman thinks that since the Gem. in Rosh Hashanah uses the same terms as Rambam (min, kofer, apikores)

      It actually doesn’t at all, there are several categories there, and nothing that lines up with the Rambam’s differentiation. R. Grossman slyly posits in a footnote that this is only so “according to the Rambam’s version”.

      1. So b’kitzur: I’m hearing about the “50 pages of substance” but I’m having a hard time locating it.

    2. If you will read again the Tur, the Bais Yosef, the Bach and the Taz, you will see that not only have you completely mangled the translation (there are differing girsaos), but you have misunderstood this Halacha and why the Yerushalmi is cited by Tur. Not that it makes a difference. Shapiro was claiming that MB ruled this way due to the Rambam’s Principles – he didn’t. This is a simple mistake that he makes, one of many.

      1. This is actually funny. Frummie obviously didn’t read Grossman’s article, because the translation he says *I* mangled was actually given by Grossman! I was showing that Grossman’s article doesn’t make sense on its own terms. Thanks for pointing out that his translations are mangled as well!

        1. The mistranslation is in your explanation of the halacha regarding missed words. Grossman doesn’t discuss that specifically. That is a matter of discussion with different girsaos, discussed by the Bach in OC 126

          1. The discussion (perhaps disagreement) in Bavli and Yerushalmi is only on חשש כפירה, so in a case of וודאי כופר all would surely agree that he cannot be a prayer reader. Hence, you have a clear source in Yerushalmi, as MB says explicitly. Like Shapiro, in your haste to play ‘gotcha’, careful study of the sources is not a priority.

          2. Sorry buddy, a swing and a miss. Grossman DOES discuss that, and I just copied and pasted his presentation of the Tur. Then I commented, “Again this seems…” This isn’t really that complicated.

            1. If you think Grossman butchered the Tur, great, take it up with him. But leave me out of it. Also, maybe if you actually read the article it would help.

            2. Yes, you are correct. I see that Grossman’s translation is not accurate according to most versions of the Tur. It doesnt change anything though. The MB clearly has the Yerushalmi as his source, as I explain.

              1. The translation is not relevant at all to the argument. Grossman’s position is very clear, and not really subject to dispute, as I explained above. The gemara and the halacha may indeed require more explanation, as your question indicates, but whichever way you take it, the point is still the same: the Yerushalmi is the explicit source for this Halacha and not the Rambam’s Ikkarim.

                1. Shapiro writes that MB would not have included these as heresies were it not for the Rambam’s formulation of Moshaich and Techias HaMeisim in the Principles. This is not true. It is clear from the Yerushalmi that these are heresies.

                2. Firstly, that’s not “an explicit source” for the halachah. At best you’re extrapolating. Secondly, if all Grossman wanted to prove is that techias hameisim is really important (the denial of which is heresy) then why did he point to that Yerushalmi and not the famous Mishnah in Cheilek? The answer is that Grossman was trying to show a halachic nafka mina from heresy (look at the article and he even makes this point) and he thought this Yerushalmi supports it. However, the Yerushalmi only shows that the words should be repeated and it actually indicates that the prayer leader is fit, despite his possible heresy!

                3. Now that I’ve looked it up I realized Grossman made a few more mistakes. It would have been nice if he had informed the reader that this Tur is not something far out that he found but on the spot. (Perhaps he meant to indicate that, but since his mareh makom for the MB is wrong – he wrote 226 instead of 126 this point does not come across). Now, the Yeshuos Yaakov (the ostensible source given in SHTZ) seems to actually *dismiss* the Yerushalmi as being k’neged our Talmud. (Hence, it seems that it is NOT the source of the MB.) YY rules that only the “big” three principles (yichud, torah min shamayim, schar v’onesh) pasul a chazan ab initio, since the Sefer HaIkkarim shows how the Rambam’s other principles must be believed, but denying them does not put one outside the fold. This shows that Grossman is wrong in note 42 to say that the ruling at hand is unrelated to the principles. The Yeshuos Yaakov, the ostensible source, disagrees. Now, the question is, how the MB got from there to include techias hameisim and Moshiach in this ruling (perhaps they are included in schar v’onesh). Nevertheless, it seems that Shapiro is also wrong that the MB’s source was the Rambam, when it was actually the Sefer HaIkkarim.

                4. Think about that Yeshuos Yaakov and you will see how this actually makes Grossman’s point all the more stronger. Don’t forget to study well the Taz that he cites, relevant to understanding the Yerushalimi.

                5. 1. “Think about it and you’ll see I’m right” is not an argument.

                  2. Is there an unavoidable *proof* from the Yerushalmi, as cited by Grossman?

                  3. Even if one could argue based on other authorities (Taz, YY) and a different girsa in the Yerushalmi that Shapiro is mistaken (which, by the way, you have not yet done – see above), nevertheless, my point stands: this article makes no reference to the Taz, YY, or a different girsa in the Yerushalmi. All he cites is the MB and Yerushalmi (according to his girsa) and then states:
                  “Obviously, the ruling of Mishnah Berurah is not an “invention” based on
                  the Rambam.” This is not obvious at all, and he really misses the whole point (which you haven’t yet made clear either). Could I look into the sources and theorize refutations of Shapiro? Possibly, but Grossman has done nothing more than say ayin sham (which he didn’t even say!). In other words, all of those Grossman defenders who say that he wrote clear precise refutations for 40-50 pages are full of sheker. They either didn’t read it or hope/think that someone else made sense of it.

                6. To make things easier, you don’t have to
                  be matriach yourself to explain why you think Grossman is right al pi the YY and Taz. Let’s stipulate that he’s right. (That question doesn’t interest me so much because to me Shapiro just pulled the idea that MB was influenced by the Rambam out of his hat.) My main question is whether there’s value in the article itself. To me the whole article did not “read” and I think those who are championing it are being disingenuous. Is there a discernible argument in the article itself?

                7. Seems to me that the argument is very clear – Marc Shapiro’s book on the principles is full of holes and his theory can’t hold water. The emperor is shown to have no clothes and this is why his perennial cheering squad, all those who have been seeking to undermine the traditional Yeshivos, have suddenly been thrown into a tizzy. Even Slifkin, the king of ‘Skeptical Judaism’has to weigh in on this, as if Grossman’s article somehow relates to him.

                8. Haven’t you always said : ‘we accept the truth from whomever says it’? Is that not a mantra of the שונאי תלמידי חכמים crowd? Suddenly you are concerned with personalities ?

                9. Sure (although I object strenuously to your description of my crowd). However, now I know not to invest too much thought into parsing your laconic arguments. Bishlama if you were sincere I would try to interpret your argument, but now that I see you have an inviolable mission, I won’t try too hard.

  25. As others have mentioned and I assume professor Shapiro already knows, certain (many) folks like this in the traditional camp will see anything that is less than complimentary towards their leadership past and present as mocking, or perhaps more accurately ‘making a mockery of’.
    I tried to read the Dialogue article but couldn’t slog through the whole thing. It adds nothing of value to the conversation. I think professor Shapiro should not have dignified it with a response.

  26. Going back to the discussion about cemeteries…
    Dr. Shapiro wrote:

    “…and even ‘more incredible’ that there are people who actually believe that the Ben Ish Hai is buried there.”

    While I personally don’t affirm that, I do believe that he was a “great enough” Tzadik that it is possible that such a miracle could happen. If I had a mesorah from my teachers that it was a historical fact, I would probably believe it. I certainly don’t think people believing such an account is ‘more incredible’ than the miracle itself.

    I’m wondering whether the readers agree that being open minded to opinions outside the mainstream tradition (as in the discussion about the Rambam’s Ikarim) also warrants being open minded to supernatural accounts, at least as a possibility, not to be automatically “censored” out of the realm of explanations.

    1. “I’m wondering whether the readers agree that being open minded to opinions outside the mainstream tradition (as in the discussion about the Rambam’s Ikarim) also warrants being open minded to supernatural accounts, at least as a possibility”

      I can argue both sides based on the Tiferes Shlomo vs. Rav Avigdor Miller:

      The Tiferes Shlomo of Radomsk is quoted that “whoever believes all the miracle stories about the Baal Shem Tov in Shivhei HaBaal Shem Tov is a fool, but whoever denies that he could have done them is an apikoros”

      Besides the simple meaning, the Tiferes Shlomo might also be understood according to the Brisker “Siman/sibah” chakirah , ie, there is no inherent requirement(“sibah”) to believe the miraculous ability of the Bal Shem, but categorical denial may point to a lack of faith in other areas(“siman”).

    2. On the other hand, Prof. Yitzchok Levine writes regarding R. Avigdor Miller(“Rav Avigdor Miller: The Later Years”, Jewish Press, 8/4/04, available online):

      “Rav Miller was a ‘rationalist’ and would dismiss any story that smacked of the esoteric with a wave of his hand, saying, “We are not m’chuyev to believe such a story.” I once related to him a story that Rav Chaim Volozhin had written about the Vilna Gaon as part of the introduction to one of the Gaon’s seforim. Rav Chaim wanted to prove that the Gaon was an expert in Kabbalah and related an amazing story about the Gaon teaching his chiddushim in Kabbalah to the AriZal and Reb Shimon Bar Yochai.

      Rav Miller waved away the story, despite the fact that it came from an impeccable source. I then asked why he always dismissed such stories out of hand. He replied, “Our emunah is strained enough by what we are required to believe. To add anything more is not wise.”

      Only later, when I became familiar with the Shabbtai Tzvi movement and the outlandish things that people who lived at that time believed did I begin to appreciate the wisdom of his words. Rav Miller was an expert in history, and, of course, he knew what he was talking about.”

    3. How does one understand the above statement of Rav Avigdor Miller that “Our emunah is strained enough” ? Harry Maryles asked this on his blog a decade ago (based on a similar quote from Prof. Levine):

      “This statement deserves some analysis. Was Rabbi Miller’s Emunah strained? Did he have some doubts about his beliefs? Could it be that his book ‘Rejoice, O’ Youth’ was a response to his own questions and doubts?… In the final analysis – this is truly an amazing fact about someone as pious as Rav Avigdor Miller. I would have thought he would never express the reality of struggling with belief. On the other hand, maybe that’s why he wrote the book. Maybe he was trying to convince himself.” (“Rejoice O’ Youth”, Emes Ve-Emunah, 6/17/10)

      My own understanding is that R. Miller might have also been referring to something such as the Rambam on the Yediah/Bechirah paradox in Hilchos Teshuvah, where the Rambam says that it is impossible for the human mind to understand, and not necessarily to a conflict of faith.

  27. When people use the expression י״ג עיקרים, they mean it like the words שמונה עשרה. It doesn’t necessarily mean the Rambam’s, it is like the non-Jewish expression ‘gospel truth’.

    Writing that Reb Moshe offered an opinion about something he didn’t know, is disrespectful, albeit not mocking.

    Otherwise, I enjoyed your rebuttal, and all Charedi thinkers I know would be in agreement with you, that the Maimonidean principles are not as accepted as the siddur printers make them out to be.

  28. Regarding the location of Shmuel HaNavi’s kever, mentioned above in the comments, Rabbi Berel Wein tells of the Satmar Rov, R. Yoel Teitelbaum’s sense of humor,  which  he encountered when the Rebbe visited R. Wein’s shul in Miami Beach with his followers(Vintage Wein, p. 245):

    One of the Rebbe’s followers came across an account in a local newspaper of the search for the kever of Shmuel HaNavi.  At the time, there was some doubt about whether the tourist attraction in Nebi Samual, reputed to be the location, was really his  burial  place. The tour guides said it was, but some scholars were unsure. One of the Chasidim in the group chortled that the archeologists didn’t know very much, “How can they know where Shmuel HaNavi was really buried? Those Israeli experts don’t know anything!”

    The Satmar Rebbe didn’t let this remark go. He quipped, “It may not be where they say it is, but I can tell you for sure that he’s not buried in Williamsburg”.

    –Shades of Gray

  29. R. Daniel Korobkin wrote in a Letter to the Editor about Dr. Shapiro’s book on the Ikarim, in response to R. Zev Leff’s review(Jewish Action, Winter, 2007):

    “Dismissing or de-legitimizing Dr. Shapiro’s work is a disservice to that significant minority of our bnei and bnot Torah who are true theology seekers. A serious yeshivah student who finds one of Maimonides’ Ikarim unsettling or problematic may be relieved to discover that a great Rishon also had trouble with that very same issue. The fact that at some point a “pesak” may have been issued requiring everyone to accept the Rambam’s Ikarim as absolute dogma will not assuage the person who is struggling with his own personal beliefs. On the other hand, books like Dr. Shapiro’s can offer the necessary soothing balm for the troubled soul who seeks to be frum and part of the Orthodox community, even though he has trouble with Maimonidean dogma.

    At the end of the day, we are a religion more of deed than creed, and Dr. Shapiro’s book—filled with multiple positions on Jewish dogma—beautifully underscores that point.”

    There is an online video “Interview by Rabbi Korobkin with Dr Marc Shapiro” discussing both his biography on R. Weinberg and the book on the Ikarim. In Minute 19, Prof. Shapiro calls academic biographies a “spiritual necessity” for modern people. R. Korobkin added that a number of charedim have read it as well.

    In of “Books and Bans”(Edah Journal, 2003, available online), Prof. Shapiro acknowledged that writing a real biography, such as about the Seridei Eish or “Making of a Gadol” includes judgment calls which people could disagree with(“…when dealing with potentially controversial matters, my own yardstick has always been whether the information will help in one’s assessment of the individuals concerned, or if is it simply voyeuristic gossip…”).

    –Shades of Gray

  30. Welcome to the club, Marc, and congratulations on reaching this milestone. The fact that your work is being attacked is a sign that it’s not trivial, has gained popularity and exposure, and is deemed noteworthy and of sufficient significance to require rebuttal in the chareidi world.

    The truth is that anyone who’s someone and who produces work of any substance and significance which stands in disagreement or contrast to its immediately preceding establishment consensus will invariably come under attack from traditionalists. Exhibit A being the Rambam himself, but there are many other exhibits, large and small, throughout jewish history, as you’re well aware of I’m sure.

    It would be impossible for your work to be of any real note without it being subject to at least some attack – and the fact that it’s attacked signifies that it has meaning and significance. And so I’m not being facetious in congratulating you on reaching this milestone – anyone that has anything of real value and significance to say can hardly avoid it, and therefore one can’t be too upset by it.

    Thank you for responding with dignity, forthrightness, respect and professionalism to the critique, and for requesting the same of the Seforim Blog community, which is indeed unique in the blogosphere. We all continue to delight in your font of insights and knowledge, and appreciate your posts.

    At the end of the day, the standard yeshivish mindset on these matters is very different from the academic one; they each exist in different worlds, black and white in one vs. nuance and shades of gray in the other, the concept of nuance itself being understood and measured differently, different styles of communication, different understandings of ‘respect’, and different ways of understanding authority and the legitimacy of disagreements.

    The ‘nisyonot’ of the recognized are different from the nisyonot of the obscure. Keep doing what you do best, and don’t let the haters make you hate, or detract anything from your best qualities.

  31. I am rather disturbed by some of the posts on this thread. I had the same feeling of disquiet when reading some of the comments regarding Dr Shnayer Leiman’s contribution.
    Surely to be part of these discussion threads one needs to fundamentally agree with the ethos of the blog itself. In other words part of the Seforim Blog “community”.
    Rabbi Kornreich, whilst being entitled to his opinions, is bitterly opposed to the ethos of the blog & certainly to everything that Marc has written. Just look at his comments on February 16th re the biography of R’ Y. Weinberg ! The comments are, in my opinion, scandalous, sickening & many degrees more objectionable than Rabbi Grossman’s.
    Rabbi Kornreich, I believe, has his own blog & his own agenda but he should not be allowed to poison the discussions on this blog. Please editors take note.
    Re the Grossman article. This is no more than a polemic where distorting the truth becomes a religious duty.
    I understand why it would be so upsetting for Professor Shapiro. However he should be satisfied with a broad-stroke rebuttal & not waste his time or energy on a line by line defence. He has far more valuable things to do with his time & intellect!
    Dan

    1. I personally very much enjoy, and gain from, Prof. Shapiro’s books and articles. But I still thinks some of the comments here are a little over the top.
      Ignoring tone, style, improper attitude etc. — I still think both Grossman and Phillips made at least a few decent points — and I would be surprised if Marc would fully disagree. I look forward to his comments.

    2. I imagine the venomous comments re the biography of R’ Y. Weinberg have some tenuous connection to the subject matter at hand but I fail to see how the gratuitous swipe at Dr. Joshua Berman aids the discussion.

    3. I agree with R. Kornreich in part. R. Korobkin made two points in his JA letter to R. Leff, whether A) hashkafa is studied adequately in yeshivos and B) how to define “hashkafa” :

      “Rabbi Leff further expressed amazement that Dr. Shapiro could even make such a claim, for “is there a serious yeshivah student who is ignorant of Rabbi Yosef Albo’s Sefer HaIkarim or Rabbi Moshe de Trani’s Beit Elokim?” I, for one, am incredulous at his incredulity. My experience—both while in yeshivot during my younger years, and currently, as a communal rabbi who interacts regularly with bnei yeshivah—is completely the opposite.”

      (One would have to update R. Korobkin’s 2007 experiences for variations in today’s yeshiva world)

      “Rabbi Leff weakened his own argument by stating that “mussar and hashkafah va’adim … take place in every yeshivah.” Grouping “mussar” and “hashkafah” together demonstrates that when addressing “hashkafah,” Rabbi Leff is talking about a very different kind of theological study than that required when critically analyzing doctrines of faith. In many respects, the latter is the polar opposite of mussar study. The “hashkafah” that Rabbi Leff refers to, on the other hand, includes works like Chovot HaLevavot (except for the Sha’ar HaYichud), Derech Hashem and Michtav MeEliyahu, all of which are meant to inspire and prod, but not to either prove or disprove theological dogma. “

      (Dialogue Magazine, in its two recent issues, has discussed the question of bringing kiruv presentations into yeshivos, which are one level of “proving theological dogma”, albeit not the same as the philosphical Rishonim)

      See link to R. Korobkin’s full letter, and that of Prof. Shapiro:

      https://jewishaction.com/letters/letters_to_the_editor3/

  32. “I’ve attended major Yeshivos and am a member of what’s considered to be a “Yeshivish” shul…I’ve been personally inspired by Dr. Shapiro’s books’

    I’d love to think you are right about the makeup of the yeshivish community, and was pleasantly suprised to meet such people when Prof. Shapiro recently spoke in Boro Park(see my description above).

    Do you think the board of Dialogue Magazine, some of whom opposed R. Slifkin, agree with you?

  33. A recent, positive development is Rabbi Mordecai Plaut’s edition of Moreh Nevuchim, published in 2019 by Feldheim. R. Gil Student, quoted in part, wrote in his NJ Jewish Link review(“New Tools to Learn the Moreh”, available online) about R. Plaut’s various ways of making the edition user-friendly:

    “… Rabbi Plaut adds as endmatter three collections of explanations of difficult philosophical terms, respectively by Rambam, Ibn Tibbon and the Vilna Gaon. Additionally, he includes extensive topical and source indexes, which are very useful for cross-referencing discussions in the Moreh, and lists of commentaries for most chapters. One strange feature in this edition is the smaller font used for all discussion of gentile philosophers. Effectively, large portions of the Moreh are labeled as unnecessary. In his introduction, Rabbi Plaut explains he did this so those who want to study only Torah philosophy can do so easily. In other words, he created an option for a charedi student to learn most of the Moreh. I find this objectionable for many reasons, but note that, to his credit, the editor only changed the font size and did not censor any of the Rambam’s words.”

    I would add to the above that in the preface to Shemonah Perakim, the Rambam himself wrote of making his work audience- friendly through omitting names of non-Jewish authors, thereby focusing on the larger picture:

    ומפני זה ראיתי שלא לזכור האומר, שכוונתי התועלת לקורא

    Back in 2008(“In Defense Of My Opponents”, available online), R. Slifkin wrote that when R. Elyashiv was challenged with the question that the Moreh Nevuchim contained the same unacceptable views as R. Slifkin wrote about, he replied that if someone were to publish a contemporary version of the Moreh that was actually readable he would equally oppose it. R. Plaut’s new edition, by contrast, was published by Feldheim and made friendly to the reader on multiple levels.

      1. Probably because
        1) Plaut is well-connected, particularly to Rabbi Feldman, who — along with his talmidim — would be key to persecuting and tormenting him.
        2)Every campaign needs a nudnik to get it started and to sustain it — and in this instance, seems like no one was sufficiently interested.

      2. “FWIW, I too, wondered why R. Plaut’s edition didn’t receive any criticism from the yeshivah world.”

        Part of it may be that they felt the needs of the time changed; the yeshiva world has allowed in the past individuals to study it. See link to preface of Chayei Olam of the Steipler (end of 2nd paragraph):

        https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41473&st=&pgnum=7

        (Some examples of the elite of the Torah world quoting or studying from MN:  first Rama in Shulchan Aruch  OC;   beginning of  preface to Shev Shmatza; R. Baruch Ber Leibowitz speaking in awe of  R. Avraham Dov Ber Levine’s(“the Malach”)secret seder in MN with R. Chaim Brisker, as per Mishpacha  circa 2010, and  comments on Kevarim.com entry for the Malach.)

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