Rabbi Steinman and the Messiah, part 1
Rabbi Steinman and the Messiah, part 1
Marc B. Shapiro
Since in a recent post I discussed Maimonides and the Principle of the Messiah, let me add one more thing. Yet before doing so, I need to make a few preliminary comments. Many readers know about the Peleg, which has caused all sorts of problems in Jerusalem. After the passing of R. Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the simmering dispute in the Lithuanian world broke out into the open, and a minority of the Lithuanian community refused to accept the leadership of R. Aharon Yehudah Leib Steinman, who was backed by R. Hayyim Kanievsky. The opponents, known as the Peleg, were led by the late R. Shmuel Auerbach.
While people are aware of the wild behavior of the Peleg youth as they are the ones who block streets in Jerusalem, there is very little awareness of what was another element of the battle in the Lithuanian community, and that was the attempt to delegitimize R. Steinman. An entire literature was created that focused on two things. The first was citing all sorts of things that R. Steinman said which were believed to be in opposition to haredi ideology. The point was to show that because of his supposedly liberal views he was not suited to lead the haredi world, and that he had departed from the approach of R. Shakh.[1]
The other focus, also found in Peleg publications, was to show that R. Steinman did not have the requisite Torah scholarship to lead the community. For obvious reasons, they never made this claim about R. Hayyim Kanievsky, and never explained why they felt able to disagree with R. Kanievsky who was the most outstanding backer of R. Steinman.
While this dispute was playing out, R. Steinman said something that was like manna from heaven for the Peleg, for now they had a chance to use some heavy “ammunition” on him, as they could claim that he rejected the Rambam’s Twelfth Principle which affirms the coming of the Messiah. In response to the attacks on R. Steinman, his defenders claimed that his words were taken out of context. During the dispute, a couple of people in correspondence with me wondered if R. Steinman should be added to the list of people who disagree with one of the Principles.
Here is a poster put up against R. Steinman by some unnamed extremist (found here).
So what did R. Steinman say that created such a mini-explosion in the haredi world. You can find the transcript of R. Steinman’s words here. You can hear the actual conversation here.
R. Meir Zvi Bergman, in discussion with R. Steinman, said that according to the Rambam one must wait for the Messiah’s arrival and not merely believe in his coming.[2] In other words, there are two separate things that are required: 1. Belief that he will come, and 2. Actively awaiting his arrival. R. Bergman referred to the Rambam’s words in the Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Melakhim 11:1, which seem to say exactly this:
וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר אלא בתורה ובמשה רבנו
R. Bergman later notes that this is also included as part of the Twelfth Principle. What he must mean is the following: In the Principle the Rambam says that we must believe that the Messiah will come, and he cites the verse from Habakkuk 2:3: “Though he tarry, wait for him.” By citing this verse, the Rambam is adding a second aspect to the principle, just like he later does in Hilkhot Melakhim.
I would add to this that presumably the Rambam also had in mind Shabbat 31a, which says that in the next world everyone will be asked if צפית לישועה. How this sentence should be translated is itself a problem. Soncino translates it as “Did you hope for salvation?”, while Koren translates as “Did you await salvation?” Hoping for salvation and waiting for it are two separate things.[3] Artscroll’s translation combines the approaches of both Soncino and Koren: “Did you wait in hope for the [Messianic] salvation?”
In response to R. Bergman’s point, about the need to actively wait for the Messiah, R. Steinman replies that no one fulfills this, namely, no one is really waiting for the Messiah. My understanding of what he said is that no one is consciously focusing on, and anxiously awaiting, the Messiah’s arrival. They believe that the Messiah will come, but in the meantime they are learning Torah and doing mitzvot and when he comes, he comes, but until then Jews have plenty to do to keep themselves busy.
R. Bergman is surprised by R. Steinman’s comment and states that the Rambam says that if one does not wait for the Messiah he is a heretic, to which R. Steinman repeats his earlier point that no one does this. Upon being questioned again, R. Steinman replies that this is a “decree that the community cannot follow.” He adds that people say that the Chafetz Chaim “waited” for the Messiah. “Maybe yes, I don’t know. This is what they say, maybe yes.” R. Steinman then adds that the Chafetz Chaim was unique, but the Torah was not given just for such special people.[4]
R. Steinman’s statements are quite provocative, first, because he expresses uncertainty if the Chafetz Chaim can really be said to have actively waited for the Messiah, and second, because he makes it clear that the other great rabbis did not really wait for the Messiah. It would have been controversial enough if all he said was that he himself, or the people of this generation, do not really wait for the Messiah, but he applied this statement also to great ones of previous generations.
As the conversation continues, R. Bergman insists that waiting for the Messiah is one of the Thirteen Principles, and that in earlier times people indeed did wait for the Messiah. R. Steinman replies that in earlier days the Jews suffered greatly and that is why they had a focus on the Messiah.
R. Moshe Schneider, who was R. Steinman’s havruta and present at the conversation, adds: “The Rambam in the Thirteen Principles says, ‘Even though he may delay, nevertheless, I wait daily for him to come.’ Doesn’t he mean that there is an obligation in the Thirteen Principles to wait [for the Messiah]?” R. Steinman could have pointed out that the version of the Principle found in the siddur which R. Schneider quoted was not written by the Rambam, and its words do not appear in the actual text of the Principle found in the Rambam’s commentary to Mishnah, Sanhedrin. However, I don’t know how much this would help, for as we have seen, in the Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Melakhim 11:1, the Rambam is explicit about the need to wait for the Messiah.
וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר אלא בתורה ובמשה רבנו
R. Bergman adds that if people do not fulfill this aspect of the Principle, then all the Thirteen Principles are weakened.
So far we see that R. Steinman held that the Principle is to believe in the coming of the Messiah, but this does not mean that one has to “wait” for him, which I think means to have a focus on the Messiah and actively wait in hope for his return.[5] We also see that R. Steinman himself was not “actively waiting” for the Messiah. Although Chabad claims that a focus on the Messiah is basic to Judaism,[6] it appears that R. Steinman thought otherwise. The Hatam Sofer already mentioned—in opposition to Maimonides—that the Messianic idea, while of course true (and denial of it is heresy), is not an essential element of Judaism, namely, basic to the very structure of the religion.[7]
א“א לי בשום אופן להאמין שיהי‘ גאולתנו אחד מעיקרי הדת, ושאם יפול היסוד תפול החומה חלילה . . . ועכ“פ הגאולה וביאת המשיח איננה עיקר
Many have wondered about these words of the Hatam Sofer. Yet they are simply a repetition of what appears in Nahmanides, and as is well known, the Hatam Sofer greatly valued the writings of Ramban. Here is what Nahmanides states (and as with the Hatam Sofer, despite these words he continues by noting that denial of the messianic idea is indeed heresy):[8]
ודע, יעזרך הא–להים, כי אם נסכים בלבנו שפשעינו וחטאת אבותינו אבדו ממנו כל הנחמות, ושיארך ויתמיד עלינו הגלות מאין קץ וסוף, וכן אם נאמר שרצה הא–להים לענותנו בעולם הזה בשעבוד המלכיות לרצון או לתועלת, כל זה לא יזיק בעיקר התורה, כי אנחנו אין תכלית גמולנו ימות המשיח, ואכול פירות הארץ ההיא, והתרחץ בחמי טבריה וכיוצא בהן מן התענוגים, גם לא הקרבנות ועבודת בית המקדש תכלית רצוננו רק גמולנו ומבטנו העולם הבא, והתענג הנפש בתענוג הנקרא גן עדן והנצל מעונש גיהנם
Returning to R. Steinman’s conversation, in response to R. Bergman he cites R. Hillel’s view (Sanhedrin 99a) that there will be no Messiah for Israel, “because they have already enjoyed him in the days of Hezekiah.” It is not clear why he cited this. Was R. Steinman stating that one does not need to believe in an individual Messiah at all, in accord with the commentary to attributed to Rashi’s understanding that R. Hillel’s point is that in the future there will only be a messianic era, not a Messiah? R. Bergman asks R. Steinman point blank if he holds like R. Hillel in opposition to the Rambam, and R. Steinman does not answer the question, instead replying, “It is enough for us to observe the mitzvot that we can.”[9]
R. Steinman’s point in mentioning R. Hillel could also be that R. Hillel certainly did not “wait” for the Messiah, as he thought that the Messiah had already arrived. Nevertheless, he is not regarded as a heretic, thus showing that this point is not essential. In any event, it is obvious that R. Steinman was not happy with R. Bergman’s focus on the details of the Twelfth Principle, and instead wanted the focus to be on the performance of mitzvot.
Not surprisingly, when the tape of R. Steinman speaking to R. Bergman was released it created a great controversy, which was called סערת המשיח. For attacks on R. Steinman by Satmar rabbis, which degrade him in the most harsh way, including one that says that R. Steinman is “worse than Kook,” see here.
A Chabad rabbi, R. Yechezkel Sofer, also responded to R. Steinman’s words (see here), and he makes a very interesting point which could explain what R. Steinman was getting at. R. Sofer states that one is not a heretic if he is lacking an emotional connection to the coming of the Messiah. The problem is only if one develops an intellectual position that there is no reason to wait for the Messiah. R. Sofer adds, however, that from a hasidic perspective a higher level of “waiting” is required, which he acknowledges not everyone is capable of. Here is how he concludes, and the second part of the sentence must be seen as a put-down of all those who do not put a stress on constantly waiting for the Messiah.
רק במישור החסידות ופנימיות–התורה נדרש רף גבוה של ‘ציפייה‘ שלאו כל מוחא סביל דא: ובהעדר–הציפייה מורה, שבתוככי–נפשו, חלשה אמונתו במשיח, אחרת ודאי היה כולו משתוקק “אמתי קא אתי מר“
I think R. Steinman can be explained very simply, that despite what the Rambam says, it is difficult for virtually anyone to be emotionally invested in the coming of the Messiah, and thus have a sense of waiting for him, especially waiting constantly (every day) which is how the Principle is formulated in the siddur. R. Steinman was saying, what is the point of speaking about something which hardly anyone can fulfill? At the end of the day, it is enough to believe in the coming of the Messiah without adding anything else to this basic belief.
R. Avraham Yehoshua Soloveitchik defended R. Steinman, and this is some of what he said before he moved into a general attack on the Peleg:[10]
גאון אחד נכנס לביקור בביתו של ר‘ יחזקאל אברמסקי זצ“ל וראה על השולחן בסמוך אליו ספר שעוסק ב“ציפייה למשיח” שחיבר אדם בן זמנינו. מיד הוא פנה אל ר‘ חצקל‘ ושאל: “מה הספר הזה עושה אצלך על השולחן“? השיב לו ר‘ חצקל‘: לפניך נכנס כאן יהודי שאיני מכיר והביא לי את הספר הזה שהוא חיבר. והוסיף ר‘ חצקל‘: פעם נכנס לרוגוטשובער יהודי שהיה מאוד מוטרד ושאל מה עושים ואיך מחזקים בציבור את העניין של אמונה בביאת המשיח? השיב לו הרוגוטשובער: פרנסה כבר יש לך? אוכל לאשתך ולילדים אתה נותן? קודם כל תדאג לעניינים הללו אחר כך תדאג למשיח.
סיים ר‘ חצקל‘: גם אני רציתי לשאול את היהודי שחיבר את הספר הזה האם פרנסה כבר יש לך? אוכל לאשתך ולילדים אתה נותן? אלא שנמנעתי רק מפני שחסתי על כבודו
The upshot of R. Soloveitchik’s point is that thinking about the Messiah is not something that needs to be at the top of our concerns. Using Scholem’s terminology, we can say that R. Soloveitchik’s approach is that of neutralization of the messianic impulse. Should we be surprised that after R. Soloveitchik’s words were made public he too was attacked.[11] Here is a poster against him that was plastered on walls in Jerusalem.
Whatever you may think of R. Soloveitchik’s words, I don’t know how to square them with what his grandfather, R. Isaac Zev Soloveitchik (the Brisker Rav), is quoted as saying, that not only must we await the Messiah every day, but we must do so the entire day and every instant.[12] R. Moshe Mordechai Shulzinger notes, based on the Brisker Rav’s understanding, that all those who give dates when the Messiah will arrive are undermining Maimonides’ Principle (which he explains in line with Maimonides’ words in Hilkhot Melakhim), because the result of their predictions is that they (and those who follow them) will not believe that the Messiah can come at any minute, as they will only be expecting him at a future time.[13]
R. Shulzinger also explains the meaning of the Brisker Rav in a different way than his words are usually understood. He says that what the Brisker Rav meant is that one must believe that the Messiah can come at any instant, and that is the meaning of “waiting” for the Messiah. Understood this way, the Brisker Rav’s point is exactly in line with what R. Steinman said, for R. Steinman never denied that the Messiah could come at any time. He simply said that the idea of consciously waiting for the Messiah is not something that a typical person can do. Here are R. Shulzinger’s words:[14]
זה חיוב של אמונה, שמאמין שיכול לבוא בכל רגע, וה“אינו מחכה” – הוא מי שהחליט בלבו ח“ו על זמן מסוים שעדיין לא יבוא, ומפני זה – הזמן ההוא מופקע אצלו מלחכות ולצפות, וזה הוא חסרון אמונה, וזה מיקרי “שאינו מחכה לביאתו“, רח“ל . . . כשמאמין שיכול לבוא בכל רגע – הרי זה “מחכה לביאתו“.
R. Shulzinger also prints a letter he sent to an unnamed rabbi who had argued that when the Rambam speaks of “waiting” for the Messiah, it does not mean that you must really believe that he can come at any minute. This rabbi compares it to someone who has a son in prison. He waits for the son to return home, even though he knows that this will not happen in the near future. According to the unnamed rabbi, this too falls under the Rambam’s understanding of “waiting,” a point that R. Shulzinger strongly rejects.[15]
In line with his understanding of the meaning of “waiting”, R. Shulzinger also makes the following very interesting point, which I don’t know if everyone would agree with: A person says that he would prefer that the Messiah not come in the near future, but only in a few years as he will by then have completed study of the entire Talmud, and will be more prepared to greet the Messiah. Nevertheless, this person knows that God does not take into account his wishes, and he believes that the Messiah can come at any instant. R. Shulzinger says that this person has not violated Maimonides’ Principle. In other words, the Principle requires the belief that the Messiah will come, and can come at any instant. Yet it does not require you to actually desire the Messiah’s arrival. Thus, to give a different example than that offered by R. Shulzinger, if someone has a very good business in the Diaspora, it could be that while he believes in the coming of the Messiah, he does not actually want this to happen, because he thinks that after the Messiah’s arrival all Jews will have move to Israel, and he does not want to give up his thriving business. According to R. Shulzinger, these sentiments would not be in contradiction to Maimonides’ principle:[16]
שהצפי‘ המחכה הוא שיעור בהצהרת גודל האמונה שלי בזה [לא הצהרה של רצון או לא רצון], כמדו‘ שזה נקרא מאמין ומחכה ומצפה לביאתו בכל רגע
To be continued
Excursus
Is there anywhere in tannaitic or amoraic writings where it says that all Jews will live in Israel is messianic days? I ask because this certainly does appear to be a widely held view throughout Jewish history. Maimonides states that “all Israel” will be gathered around the Messiah (Hilkhot Melakhim 12:3), but I don’t think this can be taken literally. I say this since according to Maimonides the messianic era will not be an era of open miracles, and people will still have free will, including free will to sin, so one can assume that some Jews will choose to remain in places outside of Israel. For those who see the messianic era as a time of miracles, when life will not continue as it does now, then it makes sense to imagine a time when all Jews will come to Israel. Thus, R. Isaac Abarbanel states that in messianic days not even one Jew will remain outside of Israel. See his commentary to Ezekiel 39:28 (p. 583), Mashmia Yeshuah, ed. Golan (Bnei Brak, 2014), pp. 72, 208. This is also stated on many occasions by the Lubavitcher Rebbe. See e.g., Likutei Sihot, vol. 11, pp. 1ff.
On the other hand, R. Shmuel Tuvyah Stern understands the issue in a purely naturalistic way. He states that the Jewish people are themselves obligated to go to Israel, as God will not be bringing them there. Those who refuse to go, or delay in going, are preventing the Jewish people in the Land of Israel from the performance of certain mitzvot that come into effect when the majority of the Jewish population lives there. (Regarding these mitzvot, see R. Yehudah Amihai here.) In other words, R. Stern acknowledges that even in messianic times not everyone will follow the Torah path. See She’elot u-Teshuvot ha-Shavit, vol. 9, p. 62:
ובאמת כשם שהקב“ה הבטיח לגאול אותנו כך חייב אותנו להגאל ולקרב את הגאולה, ואלו בני עמנו שהם מאחרים לצאת מן הגולה ומעכבים את הגאולה מבטלים אחת מהמצות הכי עיקריות של התורה, כי הגאולה היא כמפתח להרבה מצות התלויות בארץ ובגולה . . . ואלו שמעברין זאת מבטלין מצות הרבים מישראל, והנה זכות הגאולה היא מצד הקב“ה שהוא מזכה אותנו בגאולה, וחוב הגאולה היא מטעם ישראל
This topic has relevance to the issue of Yom Tov Sheni. Will it still be celebrated in messianic days for those Jews living outside of Israel? Since we will return to the old way of declaring Rosh Hodesh, rather than by a calendar, the assumption in pre-modern times would presumably have been yes, as far flung places would still not know what day was declared the New Moon. However, with modern communications, it would seem that there will be no Yom Tov Sheni in messianic days, even for people who live in the Diaspora.
Writing before the invention of modern communications, R. Moses Sofer states that there will indeed be Yom Tov Sheni in messianic days. See Derashot Hatam Sofer, vol. 2, p. 274b, s.v. למען. He sees this as in remembrance of our time in exile. See, however, ibid., p. 208a, s.v. כל, where he says that Yom Tov Sheni will be abolished in messianic days, and that this is the meaning of the rabbinic teaching in Yalkut Shimoni, Mishlei no. 944: “All the festivals [i.e., Yom Tov Sheni] are to be abolished in the future [messianic era], but Purim will never be abolished.”
Elsewhere, in speaking of Yom Tov Sheni in the messianic era, R. Sofer refers to it as ב‘ ימים טובים של גאולתינו. He makes this comment while discussing R. Judah’s position in Gittin 8a: “R. Judah holds that all islands fronting the coast of Eretz Israel are reckoned as Eretz Israel” (see his commentary to Beitzah 4b. See also his commentary to Beitzah 24b and She’elot u-Teshuvot Hatam Sofer, Orah Hayyim no. 145 [end]). R. Sofer notes that this means that all islands in the Mediterranean on the same latitude as the biblical Land of Israel (which extends into Lebanon), are regarded as belonging to Israel. If you look on a map (and you can actually see a good one in the Koren Talmud, Gittin 8a) you will see that this means that Cyprus, Crete, and Sicily are part of the territory of Israel. R. Sofer states that Jews who live in these places in messianic days will have to observe a second day of Yom Tov.
It is not clear to me why R. Sofer assumes that R. Judah’s position is accepted. See Tosafot, Gittin 8a, s.v. Rabbi Yehudah, where Rabbenu Tam states that we do not accept his position. Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Terumot 1:7, also rejects R. Judah’s opinion.
In describing how far the territory of Israel extends, the R. Sofer writes (Teshuvot, Orah Hayyim, no. 145 [end]):
דכל הנסין שבים הגדול עד אוקיינוס שייכים לארץ ישראל והוא עד מצר רמון ספרד
The word נסין, which he uses, is found in Gittin 8a and it means “islands”. See Jastrow, s.v. נס and ניסא.
(Regarding R. Judah’s position about the islands being included as part of Israel, R. Hayyim Kanievsky points to Psalms 97:1: “The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad – ישמחו איים רבים.” R. Kanievsky asks why does it say איים in plural. He answers that this makes sense according to R. Judah’s view that the islands opposite Israel are included in the territory of Eretz Yisrael. See R. Kanievsky, Ta’ama de-Kra to Ps. 97:1.)
In the quotation above, R. Sofer refers to רמון ספרד. In medieval Hebrew, this is how the kingdom of Granada is called. The word “Granada” means pomegranate, which are abundant in that part of Spain, and a pomegranate was on the kingdom’s coat of arms (and is also found on the contemporary Spanish coat of arms). The reason the kingdom was generally called Rimon Sefarad and not just Rimon, which would be the literal translation of “Granada”, is because the expression רמון ספרד is a play on the biblical place רמון פרץ that is mentioned in Num. 33:20. See R. Meir Mazuz, Bayit Ne’eman, vol. 1, p. 32. In Yehudah Halevi’s poem בעברי על פני רמון the first line reads בעברי על פני רמון מפחד. Some scholars believe that instead of מפחד it should read ספרד. See Halevi, Diwan, ed. Brody (n.p., 1971), vol. 1, p. 78 (note to poem no. 34). Yet Halevi elsewhere does refer simply to רמון. See Diwan, vol. 1, p. 153, line 59, and vol. 2, p. 280, line 46
Since the Hatam Sofer is absolutely clear in what he writes, that the boundary of Israel extends until the end of Granada, which means the Atlantic Ocean, I don’t understand how R. Mordechai Winkler can cite without objection a report that R. Sofer said that England also falls within the borders of Israel. See Levushei Mordechai, Yoreh Deah vol. 3, no. 49.
R. Hayyim Hirschensohn interprets R. Judah’s position differently than the Hatam Sofer. He assumes that R. Judah is speaking not of the Mediterranean but of the Atlantic Ocean, and thus the territory of Israel extends all the way to the United States. He also interprets R. Judah to be including not merely the islands but also the land territory that is on the same latitude as Israel. What this means is that a good deal of the southern United States is included in the territory of Eretz Yisrael! Furthermore, R. Hirschensohn claims that according to R. Judah you can pray in the direction of these southern states, and those in the U.S. who want to fulfill all opinions should do this!. (Interestingly, he also does not see any significance for people in the U.S., who are so far from Israel, to face the Holy Land in their prayers.) See his article in Avraham Moshe Luntz, ed., Yerushalayim 8 (1909), p. 196:
והרוצה לצאת ידי כל הדעות יתפלל באמירקא [!] נגד הדרום כי לדעת ר‘ יהודה (בגיטין ד“ח ע“א) שכל שכנגד ארץ ישראל הרי הוא כארץ ישראל . . . זה כולל חלק גדול מצפון אלגריא, ובאמירקא: דרום סויט קארליינא, צפון דזארזי, צפון אלאבאמא, צפון מסיסיפי, צפון לוזיאני, דרום אריקאנסיס, צפון טעקסיס, דרום ניו מעקסיקו, דרום אריזאנא, דרום קאליפארנע, כל אלה המקומות לדעת ר‘ יהודה הם ארץ ישראל, והעומד בתפלה נגדם כעומד נגד ארץ ישראל
See also R. Yeshayahu Steinberg in Ha-Ma’yan, Tishrei 5775, pp. 43-44, who has a different approach according to which even Northern France is perhaps regarded as having the holiness of Eretz Yisrael. He even says that if someone is forced to live in the Diaspora, it is better to live in northern France since it is in some sense part of Eretz Yisrael!
ויש נפ“מ מסוימת בדיון זה לעניין בדיעבד: אם אדם נאלץ לדור בחו“ל ויש לו אפשרות בחירה – יעדיף לגור בצפון צרפת במקום שאותו הזכירו בעלי התוס‘ הנ“ל, כי יש במקום זה צד של קדושת א“י ומניעה של עזיבת א“י לגמרי
If one has to live in the United States (or west of it), then R. Steinberger says that it is best to live in places on the latitude of Israel (that is, the places mentioned by R. Hirschensohn).
I don’t mean the following to be disrespectful, but I can’t help commenting that what R. Steinberger says might make sense on paper, but I am certain that no one in history has ever made living plans based on the assumption that there is some spiritual advantage due to the holiness of Eretz Yisrael to living in northern France or South Carolina over anywhere else in the Diaspora.
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It has been a while since I have done a quiz, so let me offer one now. Email me with answers at shapirom2 at scranton.edu
1. If you look at older machzorim, in the Tekiat ha-Shofar between the first two sets of blasts you find the letters שב. What is this about?
2. Where in Rashi’s commentary on the Talmud does he say that a certain individual knew all of Shas?
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[1] In addition to citing “liberal” passages in R. Steinman’s works in order to discredit him, they also cited a number of strange things that he supposedly said, also in order to discredit him. As always with these types of attacks, it is hard to know if R. Steinman really said what they claim he did. There is a long history of famous rabbis being misquoted, both by opponents and even more so by supporters. Thus, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that R. Steinman ever said the following which is quoted in his name by an unnamed student.
פעם אמר רבנו הגראי”ל, שאודות השואה כולם חושבים על האסון שנהרגו הרבה מכלל ישראל, אבל יש כאלו שבאמת היה עדיף שיהרגו, כי הם היו מחללי שבת וע”י זה שנהרגו עשו פחות עבירות. היטלר הרג את כל המשומדים שהתבוללו בזדון, וזה דבר אחד טוב שיצא מהאסון הזה, שנהרגו כל המשומדים
דרבינו ז“ל אית לי‘ פירושא אחרינא בהך דצפית לישועה, וס“ל דלא קאי אישועה הכללית, אלא קאי אישועה פרטית לפי הזמן, והיינו דכל אחד לפי מצבו בעת שנצרך לאיזה דבר וקשה לו להשיגו, מקרי שהוא נזקק לישועה ונצטוה לצפות לה
[4] See also the Chafetz Chaim, Mahaneh Yisrael (Jerusalem, 1973), p. 172:
וכמו שאנו אומרים בתפלה כי לישועתך קוינו כל היום וכתבו בספרים שלא דוקא על הגאולה בלבד צריך לצפות אלא על כל מין צרה שלא תבא צריך לצפות לישועת ה‘ וכבר כתבו בשם האר“י ז“ל שבכל יום כשאומר כי לישועתך קוינו כל היום יכוין שמצפה לישועה על כל צרה שנמצא בו
Regarding the Chafetz Chaim, in his Mahaneh Yisrael there is an entire chapter (ch. 25 in the 1973 edition [in the first section]) on the issue of the future redemption. The chapter’s title is
גאולת ישראל: בו יבואר שצריך האדם לצפות תמיד לגאולת ישראל
At the beginning of the chapter he writes:
שלא דיי [!] באמור בפה שהוא מצפה לישועה אלא צריך להיות מצפה לישועה בלב שלם ואמונה שלמה
R. Shmuel Greineman writes as follows about the Chafetz Chaim (Chafetz Chaim al ha-Torah, p. 229):
והי‘ מרגלא בפומי‘ תמיד, כי משיח צדקנו יבוא פתאום, אם רק נחכה עליו, רגילים אנו לומר “כי מחכים אנחנו לך“, “ואחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא“, אבל אנו אומרים זה רק בפינו, ולבנו בל אתנו
R. Yehezkel Levenstein, Or Yehezkel, vol. 3, p, 298, writes:
התעוררתי לדבר בעניני הגאולה מפני שהתעוררתי בעצמי לזה לכן הנני מרגיש שמחובתי לדבר בענינים אלו. וזכורני שהחפץ חיים ז“ל היה ממשיל את צורת הצפיה למלך המשיח לחולה אנוש היודע כי רופא גדול בא לבקרו ולהמציא תרופה למחלתו. ועומד וממתין לביאתו וכל נקישה בדלת גורמת לו להתרגשות שהנה בא הרופא אליו, וכל שעת איחור אינה ממעטת מצפיתו אלא להיפך עומד ומצפה הנה בודאי עתה יבוא וירפאהו. כן חייב להיות הציפיה לביאת הגואל, וכל שאינו ממתין כן חייב לחזק את עצמו באיזה אופן שהוא כדי שיוכל להיות מהמחכים לביאתו
The same analogy that R. Levenstein cites in the name of the Chafetz Chaim is cited by R. Elijah Dessler in the name of his father-in-law, R. Nahum Zev Ziv. See Beit Kelm, vol. 2, p. 131.
[5] Regarding Maimonides’ Principle of the Messiah, R. Moses Salmon, Netiv Moshe (Vienna, 1897), p. 44, makes the interesting comment that in the days of the Sages, belief in the Messiah was not a dogma, denial of which would have been regarded as heresy:
שבדורות חכמי המשנה והתלמוד לא היתה אמונת המשיח עוד אמונה עיקרית בישראל כ“כ עד שיהי‘ הכופר בה ככופר בעיקר הדת אשר הוא אמונת האחדות . . . ואף שהר“מ ז“ל מנה אותה בעקרים, הנה הוא ז“ל דבר מהדורות האחרונים ואילך ולא מהדורות התנאים, כי מצאנו בתנאים את ר‘ הלל שאמר אין משיח לישראל (סנהדרין צט ע“ב) ור“ע גם הוא טעה בבר כוזיבא ודרש עליו הפסוק דרך כוכב מיעקב שהוא משיח (איכה רבתי פסוק בלע ה‘) ובכל זאת לא מצאנו שהרחיקום מכל [!] ישראל בעבור זאת.
I don’t understand his point about R. Akiva, as unlike R. Hillel, he did not deny the concept of a Messiah. He just falsely identified Bar Kokhba as the Messiah. Also, it is not clear whether R. Hillel was a tanna or an amora. See my Limits of Orthodox Theology, p. 141 n. 10.
[6] Regarding Chabad and the Messiah, it is worth noting that Elliot Wolfson has argued that the Rebbe’s secret teaching is that there will be no physical redeemer. Rather, the messianic redemption is able to occur within each person. See Open Secret: Postmessianic Messianism and the Mystical Revision of Menahem Mendel Schneerson (New York, 2009).
[7] She’elot u-Teshuvot Hatam Sofer, Yoreh Deah, no. 356. The Hatam Sofer’s descendant, R. Akiva Glasner, was shocked by what his forefather wrote. See R. Glasner, Ikvei ha-Tzon (London, 1958), p. 104:
אני עומד ומתמיה על ק“ז החת“ס זצוק“ל אשר בניגוד אל מה שהעתקתי מדבריו הקדושים הנ“ל פלטה קולמוסו הטהורה דבר המפליא ומבהיל כאחד בתשובותיו
[8] Kitvei Ramban, ed. Chavel, pp. 279-280. See also ibid., p. 324, where Nahmanides has strong words about those who only focus on their personal lives rather than praying for God to bring the messianic era.
כולנו כצאן תעינו איש לדרכו פנינו: יאשים את ישראל בעבור כי הם בגלותם ישימו כל כוונתם בעסקי העולם, ומשים כל אחד כוונה לעצמו ביתו ועסקיו, וראוי להם להיות בוכים ולהתפלל לפני ה‘ לילה ויום שיכפר על עוון ישראל ויחיש קץ הגאולה.
[9] R. Meir Mazuz offers the fanciful suggestion that the reason the Ashkenazic version of Kaddish—and I guess he would include R. Amram Gaon as well—did not include ויקרב משיחיה is so as not to decide against R. Hillel. See Or Torah, Tevet 5778, p. 337. Yet as R. Mazuz himself notes, even Ashkenazim say in the Amidah: ומביא גואל לבני בניהם.
In Kevatzim mi-Ketav Yad Kodsho, vol. 1, p. 37, R. Kook explains R. Hillel’s position as follows:
הלל הי‘ חושב שמציאות מלך באומה בא מצד חסרון המוסר, אמנם ברוממות המוסר צריך רק תוקף לאומי גדול ונעלה,על כן אמר אין משיח לישראל, כי אם בא יבא לנו תוקף לאומי נהדר מאד, וכח שלטון של ישראל הוא המשיחות
Yeshayahu Leibowitz claims that R. Hillel’s statement was directed against the Christians. He was telling them not to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, as the Jews already enjoyed the messianic era in the days of Hezekiah. See Sihot al Torat ha-Nevuah shel ha-Rambam(Jerusalem, 1997), pp. 400-401. Graetz already offered this suggestion. See Encylopaedia Judaica, s.v. Hillel.
[10] See here where the poster against him that I include is also found.
[11] Unlike R. Avraham Yehoshua, R. Meir Soloveitchik spoke out against what R. Steinman said. See here. As long as we are speaking about the Jerusalem Soloveitchiks, let me also mention that R. Meshulam Dovid Soloveitchik writes that one who truly waits for the Messiah understands what the Zionists are all about. He also adds that those who have any happiness about the State of Israel are lacking in their belief in the coming of the Messiah. See Shiurei Ha-Gaon Rabbi Meshulam ha-Levi: Derush ve-Aggadah (Jerusalem, 2014), p. 601:
והנה מי שברור אצלו לגמרי ענין האמונה והציפיה לביאת המשיח הוא יודע להסתכל כראוי על הציונים, ומי שיש לו משהו של שמחה על המדינה ועל השלטון והחוקים שלהם הדבר מוכיח שחסר אצלו באמונה בביאת המשיח.
R. Meshulam Dovid Soloveitchik has many pages in which he blasts Zionism and the State of Israel in the harshest way imaginable. Yet after all this, he adds that nothing he says should lead to the degrading of any Torah scholar who is mistaken in this matter—a lesson Satmar authors would do well to learn— and this was the path of both his father, the Brisker Rav, and his grandfather, R. Chaim. See ibid., pp. 601-602:
אמנם צריך לדעת שכל מה שאנו מדברים . . . זהו על השיטה ולא לזלזל באנשים חרדים אפילו אם טועים בהשקפתם לילך אחריהם, ובודאי שאסור לבזות ת“ח וצריך להיזהר בכבוד התורה ולהתנהג עמם בדרך ארץ, ובנפש החיים כתב דהמבזה ת“ח שאין לו חלק לעוה“ב זהו אפילו ת“ח שלומד שלא לשמה. צריך לרחם עליהם על שטועים טעות מרה שכזו, אבל אסור לבזותם. בכל השנים שהייתי אצל מרן ז“ל לא ראיתי מעולם שביזה מישהו, וגם הגר“ח ז“ל לא ביזה שום אדם. הרבה מעשים שמעתי בבית ומעולם לא שמעתי שביזה מישהו.
[12] Haggadah shel Pesah mi-Beit Levi, p. 120. R. Moshe Feinstein had the same basic approach. See Iggerot Moshe, Orah Hayyim 5, no. 8:
משום דהחיוב בכל יום ויום לצפות כעין וודאי שיבא היום
As the Messiah can come at any time, including during the Covid pandemic, R. Gamliel Rabinowitz wonders if kohanim would be permitted to wear masks while performing their service in the Temple. See Or Torah, Elul 5780, p. 1327.
[13] Peninei Rabbenu Ha-Griz, p. 376. R. Yekutiel Yehudah Halberstamm, Shefa Hayyim: Derashot Humash-Rashi 5742, p. 431, goes so far as to say (emphasis added):
שהרמב“ם הק‘ פוסק הלכה ברורה שאסור לאדם אפילו לחשוב שמא יתאחר זמן ביאתו של מלך המשיח, אלא להאמין באמת שמשיח צדקנו יכול לבוא בכל רגע
R. Jacob Sasportas, Tzitzat Novel Tzvi, ed. Tishby (Jerusalem, 1954), p. 41, writes:
כי אמונת הדת היא שבכל יום ויום ובכל שעה ורגע בוא יבוא האדון אשר אנו מבקשים
[14] Peninei Rabbenu ha-Griz al ha-Torah, p. 383.
[15] Peninei Rabbenu ha-Griz al ha-Torah, pp. 382ff.
[16] Peninei Rabbenu ha-Avi Ezri, p. 417. There are myriads of other possible reasons why one might not wish the Messiah to come soon or even at all. Consider this hypothetical case: A man who intermarried and had children later became a ba’al teshuvah and divorced his wife. He is now hoping that his former wife and children will convert. However, it will take some time for him to convince them that this is the best path. This man, who now goes to Daf Yomi, learned from Yevamot 24b that in the days of the Messiah no converts will be accepted. So while the man believes in the coming of the Messiah, and wants him to come, he does not want him to come too quickly, since he figures he needs a couple of years before his family will be ready to convert. While some will regard this man as a heretic for not waiting in hope for the Messiah every single day, according to R. Shulzinger’s understanding of the Brisker Rav, there is nothing lacking in this man’s belief in Maimonides’ Twelfth Principle.
56 thoughts on “Rabbi Steinman and the Messiah, part 1”
Thank you for the interesting post.
Regarding all Jews being in Israel in Messianic times, the Minchat Chinuch, as part of his answer for why there is no yom tov sheni for Chanukah (i.e. 9 days outside of Israel), says that in the Messianic age, when they reinstitute the witness program, there will indeed be 9 days outside of Israel.
This implies there would be those who are outside the land of Israel keeping Chanukah in the Messianic age.
By the way, Rav Reuven Margulies in Nefesh Chaya disagrees because a) there is no safek yom when the holiday occurs so late in the month like Chanukah, b) surely they will use radios to announce the new moon internationally, which is instant.
i tried to email the answers but access was denied
You can email to shapirom2@scranton.edu
1. In ישורון לג on page תרע there is from רב ארון רייך, a correspondence with Rav Shulzinger, as it may appear he is the anonymous author of the letters. He says explicitly, if he knew as fact that the Brisker Rav said something, he would be bound by it. However, mere hearsay that appears to him contrary to chazal, he doesn’t believe. He examines some of the above sources and more.
2. I think that another רמב”ם in משנה תורה needs to be quoted in this regard.
רמב”ם תשובה ט, ב
ומפני זה נתאוו כל ישראל נביאיהם וחכמיהם לימות המשיח כדי שינוחו ממלכיות שאינן מניחות להן לעסוק
בתורה ובמצות כהוגן וכו’ עי”ש וכן איתא בפי”ב מהל’ מלכים הל’ ד
It would seem that ימות המשיח isn’t an end in and of it self, rather merely a means to better accomplish the same תורה ומצות we have now.
Somewhere in this article it would worth mentioning the opinion of ר׳ הילל was openly rejected in the Talmud based on the chronology of the prophets.
ר’ הילל אומר אין להם משיח לישראל שכבר אכלוהו בימי חזקיה אמר רב יוסף שרא ליה מריה לרבי הילל חזקיה אימת הוה בבית ראשון ואילו זכריה קא מתנבי בבית שני ואמר {זכריה ט-ט} גילי מאד בת ציון הריעי בת ירושלים הנה מלכך יבא לך צדיק ונושע הוא עני ורוכב על חמור ועל עיר בן אתונות
I remember seeing in the Vilna Gaon’s פירוש על כמה אגדות, that he quotes a ירושלמי in עירובין–פ”ג:ה”ט that keeping the second day in גלות is a type of קנס for prior nonobservance, which caused the exile.
To this:
“I don’t think this can be taken literally”
If not, what can, then?
You can believe literally in Mashiach and Messianic Times but not in a full ingahering?
Or lacking an ingathering, a disappearance of those who don’t come, individually or at least communally.
ש”ב
שוטה בלאז
B”H.
Very interesting article. Thank you.
A few small comments.
See here to an interesting article, in regards to various difference between the Nusach of the Rambam’s 13 Ikarim, and the Nusach we have in the Siddur.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53508&st=&pgnum=691&hilite=
On the following three pages there is a discussion in regards to the idea of being “Mechake Le’Biosoi”. In the article and footnotes there are ample discussion and sources in regards to the opinion of the Brisker Rav.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53508&st=&pgnum=710
Since it was mentioned about it being hard to actually do certain things which the Ikarim demand, I would like make note of the following letter from Rav Gifter:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20399&st=&pgnum=456&hilite=
וכבר כ’ מרן החזו”א זצוק”ל שכל הי”ג עיקרים קשים הם לטבע האדם הנורמלי
ועליו לכוף עצמו על כך
That’s quite a statement. Do you know where the Chazon Ish wrote this?
BH
I do not.
כל יסודי האמונה, י”ג העיקרים והמסתעפים, המה תמיד בסתירה נמרצה עם המושכלות הקלות ושטף החיים המפותחות תחת השמש. והכרתם הבהירה והמתורצת והמושיטה דווקנות יתרה באמונתם,היא נועם הקיצוניות .
חזון איש, קובץ אגרות ח”ג אגרת סא.
BH
Thank you.
What the Chazon Ish actually says (see a few comments below) is profoundly different from the impression one would get from Rav Gifter’s paraphrase.
Language matters.
There is also addition discussion to the notes to the words of the Chofetz Chaim.
I guess Granada also is hinted in the words of R. Jacob Emden that Spain in it’s heyday was “like Israel”, or something along those lines
Testing
Back when I was a lad, about thirty-five years after the establishment of the State of Israel, charedi-ish kids’ magazines would have stories about “when Mashiach comes.” It goes without saying that these stories acted as if Jewish history had frozen somewhere in the late 1700’s, apart from a transfer of Jews to America. Torah Umesorah’s Olomeinu, for example (I saw this in an Artscroll reprint), described news reports of an old man on a white donkey riding into Jerusalem blowing a shofar and…bam. Moshiach. Everyone goes to shul, the shuls magically lift in the air and fly to Eretz Yisroel, bewildering the flight controllers at “Lod Airport.” Leaving aside that the airport hadn’t been called that in a decade, what government had built and run said airport might as well not have existed.
It almost goes without saying that as a youth I heard an “expanded” theory, that if you have a shtiebel in your basement your *house* will lift up and go to Israel. Ta-da! No effort at all required for kibbutz galiyot. Pity all the suckers who invested so much in making it happen for themselves and others, the apikorsim.
(This is hardly limited to aliyah. Press a Brisker insisting that, say, tekhelet needs a mesorah, and eventually the answer “When Mashiach comes” will emerge.)
Light magazine (although this may also have been a Pirchei thing), which at the time I didn’t realize was a lot more extreme than appeared to me then, took it a step further: They made it pretty clear that anyone who reacts to news of “Moshiach coming” by doing anything so crass as actually *going to Israel* is a gashmius-oriented MO who, nebach, is missing the point. The people with the right idea go to shul, do teshuva, and then some mysterious dude shows up, calls their Hebrew name, and…takes them away. To Eretz Yisroel (again, definitely not Israel), presumably, probably via supernatural means.
Anyway. That was the charedi kids version, taught also in MO schools (which, of course, leaves an impression as the kid ages), then. This post, I suppose, takes it a step further, for the Zionist (although at least in certain circles apparently trending away even from that, sadly and perhaps logically and inevitably) Modern Orthodox: There’s no *need* for flying shuls or carpets or whatever, let alone anything more difficult. Just stay where you are! Maybe be oleh regel three- OK, two- times a year. Maybe one. Maybe every few years.
But here’s the thing: The rationalist and, yes, cynic in me knows that in terms of how things *will* play out, Prof. Shapiro is almost certainly correct. (As is, by the way, R’ Steinman.) No one’s going to be forced to do anything, or, from the charedi perspective, no buildings are flying anywhere. Which means the hoping and/or awaiting, take your pick, will go on no matter what, and/or will fade to nothing, no matter what.
K’darko bakodesh, Prof. Shapiro doesn’t say whether or not this is a *good* thing. I imagine others can, though.
Thanks for letting me ramble.
A little late to answer, but you are basically paraphrasing Yomtov Ehrlich’s song about Moshiach ‘s coming אך ווי שיין וועט דעמאלס זיין.
I found it quite funny, how he addresses various people and their foibles along the way.
Great comment Nachum!
Thanks for the interesting post.
Obviously one can glean from these incidents a picture of R. Steinman’s opinion on the Mashiach issue. However in my opinion that would be somewhat missing the point. This is a classic example of what made R. Steinman unique. He insisted on living in the real world and would simply not tolerate “religious” talk that did not fit reality. Now matter how many explicit Rambams, or any other sources for that matter, someone is going to bring, every darn one of us knows that virtually no one lives this way. Now what? Are you saying we’re all apikorsim? You don’t really believe that, you know I don’t believe it, so why are you saying it? This is vintage R. Steinman.
In my experience this is true of all really great people but R. Steinman was the most vocal about it.
I once heard a shiur from a prominent rabbi giving the claim about someone who doesn’t wait for Mashiach being an apikores. I wanted to ask him how he eats meat. Has he checked whether the shochet is pining for Mashiach? If not, the meat is neveilah.
I agree with this interpretation of R’ Steinman’s words. Many other gedolim have expressed similar (not always identical) sentiments, most famously the Raavad in his gloss on God being incorporeal.
The general idea is that no matter what you find in 100 texts, it’s inconceivable that the entire religious Jewish world is completely wrong about a matter of great consequence. In such cases you need to reinterpret the texts, one way or the other.
Agreed with that. פוק חזי וכו. אם אין נביאים, בני נביאים וכו. And yet with all that, Rabbis and others throughout the generations have had no problems saying exactly the opposite, and urging the adoption of practices that virtually no one hitherto was doing, or the cessation of those that almost everyone *was* doing. I’m sure you wrote “great consequence” precisely b/c of this point, but we all know what is trivial to one is pivotal to another. So go figure.
As an aside, you mention the Peleg, whom you say were led by the late Rav Shmuel Auerbach, and then you say that the Peleg was responsible for these broadsides and other attacks on R. Steinman. This could lead to the impression that R. Auerbach had something to do, if indirectly, with those attacks.
It needs to mentioned that R. Auerbach and Rav Steinman had a relationship of mutual respect. They may have been critical of each other’s approaches but anyone who actually knew them would laugh at the idea that R. Auerbach would think that R. Steinman was not a competent Torah scholar. In fact, it was R. Auerbach’s practice that whenever he was in Bnei Brak for Shabbat, he would make his way on Friday night after the tefillah to R. Steinman’s home, and the two would converse on Torah topics for a long time. This went on for years.
As a scholar, you usually take responsibility for your claims, so I’m wondering why you think the broadside (and similar ones) had anything to do with R. Auerbach’s people? There were several sectors who were against R. Steinman personally, and they had nothing to do with R. Auerbach. These included the Eidah HaChareidit and Neturei Karta. They would put out attacks from time to time on R. Steinman, usually having to do with the Nachal.
R’ Steinman was literally physically attacked by members of the Peleg. He was once giving a shiur in his home when someone jumped up and started punching his head.
Now, you could argue, stam a meshugene, R’ Auerbach was old, whatever. But if the daas Torah narrative is that the gadol has divine guidance, he is totally in control, and has complete obedience from all, then you can’t have it both ways.
I really don’t think this is the place to have a give in take about the topic, but I’m confused.
First, please explain your claim that “R. Steinman was attacked by members of the Peleg.” I assume you are referring to the episode that you go on to cite? If so, please explain what makes you think he was in any way affiliated with R. Auerbach or his students.
Second, are you aware that the perpetrator was arrested, but the judge immediately threw the case out because the fellow is literally a psychiatric case? She had him committed to a facility.
Third, who said anything about a daas Torah narrative, and how is that relevant to the discussion at hand, namely, did Rav Auerbach question Rav Steinman’s status as a great Torah personality?
(Since you brought it up, I don’t subscribe to what you call the daas Torah narrative, I don’t believe Rav Auerbach (whom I knew personally) did, and I think Rav Steinman would shake with laughter at the very notion of it [he enjoyed a good laugh when appropriate.)
Yes, it’s always the psychiatric cases who take the subtle encouragement of their rebbe too far. That isn’t an excuse for anyone, though.
For people who supposedly don’t believe in daas torah, they do a great job of faking it.
Look, on a number of occasions I have been *very* inconvenienced by the lunatic actions of the Peleg goons, sometimes coming home from work hours late, for example. I’m never in the mood to hear any excuses for them or their leaders. The State of Israel is willing, insanely, to exempt them from the duty all other citizens are obligated in. They should just buck up and file for it.
Or, if they had real morals, enlist in the military. Lots of people do it.
Where did I say that the broadsides were from the Peleg? During the controversy, people associated with the Peleg attacked R. Steinman but I don’t know if these people were responsible for the poster. In general, the Peleg people don’t do pashkevilin. That is more Edah and Neturei Karta, and I think they were responsible here as well.
But rereading what I wrote, I see how people could come to this conclusion.
Professor Shapiro,
I must say that it is difficult not to be impressed by your integrity and willingness to step back and view things from another’s perspective.
This is not the first time I have encountered those traits in you. Unfortunately, they are rare, in my opinion. We should learn from you.
Since, as you say, “see how people could come to the conclusion” that you were somehow associating this attack with people affiliated with Rabbi Auerbach, would you consider altering the text of your post so as to prevent that misinterpretation?
Yes, I will do this. Thanks for calling it to my attention. It usually takes a few hours before they can correct it.
And thank you for your kind words. We all should look for the truth, so there is no shame in acknowledging error or in having overlooked something that was pointed out by another.
We need to move beyond the Rambam. He’s just one opinion, albeit one that carries a lot of weight. As I’m sure Marc Shapiro is well aware ; ), violating one if the 12 Principles doesn’t automatically make one an apikores.
* 13 Principles
“R. Steinman replies that in earlier days the Jews suffered greatly and that is why they had a focus on the Messiah.”
It is thus no accident that Peleg and Satmar are the ones being especially critical here, as their version of Judaism tends to be bitter, defensive, and utterly unable to interact constructively with the reality that surrounds them . . . they essentially exist in a type of self-imposed misery.
Self-imposed being the main point here. Neither of them ever had it as good as they do now.
Let’s be honest, the anti-Zionists are waiting for Mashiach less than anyone else.
“the anti-Zionists are waiting for Mashiach less than anyone else”
Can you please explain this comment? I’m really not sure what you mean…are you trying to say that Anti-Zionists have it better than everyone else? What’s your basis for this statement?
You’re combining two different things I said:
1. Much as Satmar and Peleg may claim to be persecuted, and poor as they might choose to be, they can’t, at least honestly, claim that their situation isn’t a whole lot better than it was in their supposedly halcyon days. Romanian politicians, circa 1920, didn’t go courting Satmar, letting them set up independent towns, fund them, build them housing. Had the Peleg tried to riot against the Turks in 1910, there would have been a massacre.
As to not wanting Mashiach to come, Ben-Gurion once made a comment that the hope for Mashiach is what kept him from coming. I’m not agreeing with him- indeed, probably he would even admit that the hope for Mashiach is a big reason Zionism got off the ground- but there is something in believing that a man on a white donkey will ride in that, to be frank, lets you off the hook. You “believe” it, it will happen…some day, and that’s that. And ultimately? It means you prefer not to think of it at all, and certainly you’re not really anticipating it.
Are the two tied to each other? Yes, as said here. Zionism took off in the Pale, not in Germany, and for good reason. If life is pretty good in Williamsburg or even Geulah, what more do you need?
It is entirely possible to be spoiled and have an entitlement, grievance mentality simultaneously. When the world stops putting up with your little tantrums, it’s amazing how quickly the complaining stops . . .
No argument with any of that.
“Ben-Gurion once made a comment that the hope for Mashiach is what kept him from coming.”
אין בן דוד בא אלא מתוך הסח הדעת
Dr. Shapiro,
Do you still plan on emending the text of this post, as you said you would?
Thanks.
I added that the poster was put up by an unnamed extremist (have to change it to “unknown”)
I’m surprised that you think that rectifies the potential for misunderstanding. You squarely place the entire issue into the context of “Peleg” versus Rav Steinman and say nothing that would indicate that you yourself don’t think this pashkevil has anything to do with them.
Do you have any documentation for the claim that Peleg publications attacked Rav Steinman for these comments? I’m not doubting you, just asking whether you have documentation or probable cause to think so.
Thanks.
Why are you so eager to defend the thugs and lowlifes of Peleg? Is it a pure pursuit of the truth, are you a personal relation, what?
I can still add a clarifying remark that there is no reason to think that it was put up by a Peleg guy.
As for your second question, Yes! That is where I first saw the attack on him. You wouldn’t ask the question if you read the Peleg literature. They attack him for everything, so obviously this would be included as well. There are over sixty kuntresim from Peleg devoted to attacking him and three of them are devoted to just this issue.
And although it may not have been put up by a Peleg person, the sentiments in the poster are definitely found in the Peleg literature, so it might indeed emanate from them. We simply don’t know. In one of the Peleg attacks on him it ends
יעוין שו”ת חתם סופר, יורה דעה חלק ב’ סימן שנו, ד”ה והנה,
בענין האומר אין משיח וקים לי’ כרבי הלל (סנהדרין צ”ט:)
Look up the Hatam Sofer and you will see what this alludes to, which is exactly what is on the poster, and which they didn’t want to spell out explicitly.
And in looking at the poster again, I now think it is probably more likely that it came from Peleg and not the NK type extremists, as it refers to R. Steinman with ‘ר before his name. The NK types when they attack R. Steinman they don’t put ‘ר before his name. Look at the second poster in the post which is from these circles and you will see how they refer to R. Steinman
I don’t know why you are so concerned with the “good name” of the Peleg. In the literature against R. Steinman they attack him personally in the most scurrilous fashion. These are not good people. I don’t mean that everyone who associates with the Peleg is like that, but the literature from Peleg supporters against R. Steinman is simply a disgrace.
In one of the discussions of the Peleg literature against R. Steinman someone wrote
היום הגיע מייל עם
PDF
של הפלס, משמע זהו מישהו “מבפנים” וצורף שם מכתבי נאצה מזעזעים נגד הגראי”ל בשפה שאף אחד ביהדות החרדית (הנורמלית, להוציא סיקריקים מטורפים) בעבר לא השתמש בה.
Regarding your question in the excursus about Jews living outside of Israel in the Messianic Era, it would seem that Shmuel’s opinion of אין בין עולם הזה לימות המשיח אלא שעיבוד מלכיות בלבד would allow for this possibility. While I’m not aware of anyone who does so, it could perhaps, be argued that the current State of Israel meets those qualifications, as there is no political entity with explicit control over their policies. Though one could counter that the globalist hegemony is indeed a שעיבוד מלכיות of sorts.
I heard from one of R’ Shach’s talmidim that he said, about Chabad (I’m paraphrasing, from memory), “Atah Chonen is the fourth berachah of Shemoneh Esreti – we don’t get to Es Tzemach Dovid until much later. Let’s worry about Atah Chonen before we worry about Es Tzemach Dovid…”
And what about Mechayeh Hameisim, which precedes Atta Chonen?
And numerous references to Mashiach already in Korbonos. Are we supposed to skip the last sentences before Yishtabach since we haven’t yet said Attah Chonen?
Also odd that Es Tzemach is referenced in the tale, considering there are several brochos prior that are about the era of Mashiach.
Yesh lomar bidochak that he was referring davka to Mincha.
I think you’re making too big a deal out of what was meant to be a cute vort.
Apropos actively waiting for the arrival of the Messiah, this brings to mind the following story involving my neighbor in Bet Shemesh from England who travelled to the US for the first time in his life ~15 years ago for a professional conference in NY. He spent Shabbat in one of the main shuls in Teaneck and was completely blown away by the Aron Kodesh that caused him to lose his kavanna while davening. The Aron Kodesh is made out of Jerusalem Stone and creates the feeling as if one is davening in front of the Kotel. The parokhet does not have a standard pasuk such as שויתי ה׳ כנגדי תמיד or דע לפני מי אתה עומד – rather it reads as follows: ממקומך מלכנו תופיע כי מחכים אנחנו לך
He repeatedly asked himself during the Amida: “Really, you’re waiting…what are you waiting for?! Just get on a plane and make aliya already!”