Interview with the Authors of “The Science Behind the Mishnah”

Interview with the Authors of “The Science Behind the Mishnah”

By: Eliezer Brodt

Introduction

Chazal teach that at ten years old, one is ready to learn Mishnah—the entry point into Torah She B’al Peh. Yet this might create a misleading impression that Mishnah is somehow elementary—mere “child’s play.” Nothing could be further from the truth. Rebbi Yehudah HaNasi composed the Mishnah for the great Tana’im and Amora’im themselves, not just for children. Those who venture even slightly beneath the surface discover that truly understanding even basic peshat in a Mishnah requires a vast amount of knowledge that should not be taken for granted.

Consider the very first mishnayos of Berachos, which discuss the times for Krias Shema. Even a curious child will begin to ask practical questions: How do these astronomical times actually work? What should we do when clouds obscure the sun and stars? How can calendars predict sof zman krias shema for next year with such accuracy?

The questions only multiply from there. When the first Mishnah mentions hekter chalavim (burning special fats), what precisely are these chalavim and how do they differ from ordinary fat? Without understanding the world around us, how can we possibly understand what the Mishnah is teaching?

Remember, too, that Berachos is relatively easy compared to what follows. The rest of Seder Zera’im plunges students knee-deep into the technicalities of horticulture and botany—subjects completely foreign to most modern learners.

This challenge isn’t new. For years, when Daf Yomi cycles reached Mesechta Chullin, many struggled or dropped out entirely. The problem was clear: having never experienced farm life, they lacked the basic understanding of animal anatomy required to follow the Gemaras about shechitah and treifos. Recognizing this need, Rav Yisroel Belsky ztz”l created a revolutionary solution, he conducted hands-on demonstrations where he methodically dissected animals, identifying each organ and explaining its halachic significance. These extraordinary sessions were videotaped, creating lasting visual aids that brought complex sugyos to life for thousands of talmidim. Through this innovative approach, the Gemara’s intricate discussions became accessible to all!

A remarkable new sefer, “The Science Behind the Mishnah,” now takes this approach to new heights. Written by Rabbis Jonathan Sassen and Joel Padowitz, two distinguished members of my shul, Beis Tefillah Yonah Avraham in Ramat Beit Shemesh, this extraordinary work illuminates the scientific foundations underlying the Mishnah. Their 318-page volume, published by Mosaica Press, is truly a masterpiece, combining gorgeous illustrations with clear explanations spanning physics, chemistry, biology, and earth science—all while methodically exploring the mishnayos of Mesechta Berachos.

The work has garnered enthusiastic endorsements from some of Eretz Yisroel’s leading English-speaking roshei yeshiva, including Rav Asher Weiss, Rav Yitzchak Berkovitz, Rav Shaya Karlinsky, and Rav Avishai David. In his eloquent haskama, Rav David writes, “Their exhaustive analysis of nature and its phenomena is breathtaking in its beauty and splendor…that can only generate a cascading, overflowing shevach v’hodaah to Hashem Yisborach.”

To explore this groundbreaking project more deeply, I sat down with the authors for an in-depth conversation about their vision, process, and the remarkable journey that produced this valuable new resource.

Following is an interview with the authors of the book:

Eliezer: How was this unique project “born”?

Joel: There was a long gestation period! I’ve been teaching Mishnah and Gemara to adults for over 20 years. I trust in the counsel of Chazal that all students—especially ba’alei teshuvah approaching Shas for the first time as adults—would benefit greatly from first mastering the basic principles of Torah She Ba’al Peh, before plowing through yet another blatt Gemara. While people are often drawn to Daf Yomi in search of yediyos, what they are looking for—whether or not they know it—is to understand principles that are more readily gleaned from learning Mishnah than from bekiyus Gemara.

One of the impediments to people learning Mishnah is that they find it a little dry. So, when I teach Mishnah, I try to also present background details of each case—whether historical, linguistic, or scientific—to make the content richer and more multidimensional. I’ve found that this supplementary information helps keep talmidim engaged in a way that almost nothing else can.

About 15 years ago, I moved to Ramat Beit Shemesh. Like most communities, there was no one teaching Mishnah to adults, so I started giving a daily shiur in my local shul. I started dreaming about collecting my little scientific supplements into a sefer that would systematically go through the entire Mishnah. One evening, after having been toying with the idea for a few years, I found myself on the way to a chasunah with my scientist friend Jonathan Sassen. I shared my idea with him. To my pleasant surprise, he told me he had been considering a similar project exploring the science behind Chumash!

Jonathan: I was looking for a way to give people the science background for a deeper appreciation of Hashem’s creation. Hashem put us together in the back of that car back in 2018, and a partnership was born! Right there in the car, we agreed to collaborate on what ultimately became this sefer.

Eliezer: Did either of you envision this project while learning with your children?

Jonathan: Actually, yes! On the advice of our Rav, HoRav Malinowitz ztz”l, I had been teaching a little “niflaos haBorei” to my children every shalosh seudos for many years, prior to that fateful car ride. Their lack of basic science education was very limiting in what we could talk about, which got me thinking about the need for accessible science materials in our community.

Joel: Funny, for me it was quite the opposite! My boys had to endure my enthusiasm for “background information” during their early Mishnah-learning years, much to their frustration. They would plead with me to “just stick to the point!” Clearly I’m not cut out to be a cheder rebbe!

But there’s a lovely irony here: as they’ve grown older and matured in their learning, they’ve come to appreciate my approach. It must have rubbed off on my girls too, as today one is studying to be an engineer and the other to be a biotechnologist. It was my children who ended up being my first reviewers, going through the book’s chapters one by one.

Eliezer: How did you two meet, and what led you to collaborate on this unusual project? It’s actually quite rare in the history of seforim for two authors to work together.

Joel: Jonathan and I met as members of the same shul, but the true force behind our collaboration was the shul’s late Rav, HaRav Chaim Zev Malinowitz ztz”l. He had been my rav, rebbe, and chavrusa for more than 10 years—in fact, I moved to Ramat Beit Shemesh specifically to be close to him. What made Rav Malinowitz such a powerful influence was that he was not only a towering talmid chacham but also a remarkably broad thinker. He understood that ba’alei teshuva could bring unique perspectives to Klal Yisroel.

I became frum when I was just seventeen, but Jonathan had come to Yiddishkeit as a mature, highly educated scientist. The Rav pushed each of us independently to use whatever gifts we had in service of Klal Yisroel. Without realizing it, he was actually pushing the two of us together to produce this work. It pains us deeply that now, five years after his petirah, he cannot have the nachas of seeing this sefer come to light.

Eliezer: You mentioned Rav Malinowitz’s influence. I think our readers should know more about him. Aside from being our shul’s rav, Hagaon HaRav Chaim Zev Malinowitz zt”l was a remarkable talmid chacham: he served as a dayan and rosh kollel in Monsey, was the general editor of ArtScroll’s Hebrew and English Shas as well as the Yerushalmi, and contributed to many of their other projects as well. How did his unique perspective influence this project?

Jonathan: Rav Malinowitz was truly exceptional. One of the concepts he frequently discussed was how deeply understanding science enhances our appreciation of Hashem’s creation rather than diminishing it. There’s a passage from the scientist Richard Feynman that beautifully captures this idea. Rav Malinowitz shared this quote publicly on more than one occasion, and it resonated deeply with us. Allow me to share it with you:

I have a friend who’s an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don’t agree with very well. He’ll hold up a flower and say, “look how beautiful it is,” and I’ll agree. Then he says, “I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing,” and I think that he’s kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is … I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it’s not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there’s also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don’t understand how it subtracts.

That perspective—that scientific understanding deepens rather than diminishes our appreciation of Hashem’s creation—is really at the heart of what we’re trying to accomplish with this sefer.

Eliezer: Let’s delve deeper into your individual backgrounds. What prepared each of you for this unique project?

Jonathan: I’ve been interested in anything to do with science since I was 10, if not before. I specialized in physics, chemistry and mathematics from age 17, and went on to earn a 1st class B.Sc. from Oxford University in Metallurgy and Material Science. After university, I studied at Shapell’s Darché Noam Yeshiva. Since 1987 I’ve been doing electrochemical research and development for an Israeli battery manufacturer. Almost 40 years later, I’m the Chief Technology Officer of that same company. Along the way I received semicha from Rabbi Shmuel Katz.

Joel: As a child, I was also very excited about science. I started taking college courses when I was 13 and later won gold at the US Science Olympiad. At 16, I was accepted to MIT where I hoped to become a physicist—but that never happened. I took a year to travel first, and that journey led me to Jerusalem and Torah learning at Aish HaTorah. After a couple years, Rav Noach [Weinberg ztz”l, the Rosh Yeshiva] paired me with Rav Malinowitz. When I got engaged to a girl from New York, Rav Malinowitz suggested Sha’ar HaTorah in Queens—where I joined your uncle Rav Shalom Spitz’s first-year shiur with boys a few years younger than me. After my wife graduated from Stern, we returned to Eretz Yisroel for some years in kollel, including three at the Jerusalem Kollel under Rav Yitzchak Berkovits. That led us to Aish HaTorah in London working with young professionals. We returned to Eretz Yisroel about 15 years ago, and—here’s a plot twist: I then went back to college, enrolling at Harvard as an undergraduate. It’s a story for a different time, but I mention it now because I honestly believe it’s a big part of the answer to your question: certain skills I learned there undeniably prepared me for this project.

Eliezer: What are your goals with this book?

Joel: I’ve got two basic goals. The first is to make Mishnah study more engaging by illuminating its scientific dimensions. But the second, and more important goal, is to help those who have spent their lives within the yeshiva system develop a deeper appreciation of the natural world around them. The Rambam in the very beginning of Mishneh Torah makes it clear that one of the primary paths to achieving Ahavas Hashem is appreciating the natural world Hashem created. While we all trust the Rambam and certainly take everything he says very seriously, in my experience this crucial point about developing Ahavas Hashem through understanding Hashem’s creation doesn’t receive the emphasis it deserves in our educational systems.

Jonathan: I actually have three. My primary goal is to give young people—and their parents—a tool to deepen their connection to Hashem through understanding His creation. Second, I’d like to give people a better understanding of the mishnayos themselves. Third, I hope we can give readers a bit of an appreciation for genuine science, which might help them avoid being misled by pseudoscience and conspiracy theories that unfortunately circulate all too often.

Eliezer: Who is the intended audience?

Jonathan: We wrote this for anyone who wants to understand the science behind Meseches Berachos—whether they’re learning the mishnayos themselves or are just curious about the science. We think it will be especially valuable in Charedi schools as part of their limudei chol curriculum.

Joel: That’s a question we came back to again and again. While anyone who learns Gemara could benefit greatly from our work, we initially thought people would primarily purchase it for their adolescent sons. What we’re finding is wonderful: parents buy it for their sons, but then everyone in the family ends up reading it. And that really makes our hearts sing, because who really is the “target audience” for the mitzvah of Ahavas Hashem? Every Jew!

Eliezer: What kind of research went into preparing this book?

Jonathan: Tons! We consulted with a highly knowledgeable Rav on all halachic matters. We worked with many science experts for subjects outside our expertise, particularly in the medical field. We looked at many school science books and online resources to understand the best teaching approaches. And we tested drafts with our older children to ensure everything was clear and engaging.

Joel: While a fair amount of research did go into the sefer, notwithstanding Jonathan’s modesty here, I think it is safe to say that the core scientific information was already in his head. Our research focused mainly on verifying and expanding the specific details needed for each topic. I also invested considerable thought and research into weaving relevant Torah content throughout almost every chapter, finding meaningful connections between the scientific principles and their Torah contexts.

Eliezer: How did you decide on the topics to cover in the book?

Jonathan: The sefer itself is structured as a peirush on Meseches Berachos, so we were anchored by the content of the mesechta. We started by asking ourselves, “What might a curious student ask about this Mishnah?” Aside from these relatively obvious questions, we also asked ourselves, “What ought students understand about this topic?” and tried to work that information in as well.

Eliezer: What was your process for working together? How did you divide the labor?

Joel: After we decided on the questions and topics we wanted to explore, Jonathan would write the first draft and identify potential illustrative images. He definitely deserves credit for the heavy lifting on the scientific side. I would then take his initial draft and edit it with a very heavy hand. My focus was twofold: crafting a presentation accessible to both school children and adults, and supplementing the scientific explanations with discussions of how these themes interconnect with halachic and hashkafic concepts.

This would kick off several rounds of back-and-forth until we both agreed on every aspect of the chapter. By the end, it would be impossible to credit any particular insight or topic to just one of us with certainty. When a text was nearing completion, Jonathan would commission custom images as needed, and we’d go through another round focusing on the visuals and captions.

Eliezer: How long did it take to write and publish the book?

Jonathan: We started the project in 2018 and submitted the manuscript to Mosaica in 2022. It took until late 2024 for us to get the book in hand—so that’s 6 years altogether.

Each step of the process took longer than we expected, especially since we had a nearly two-year pause during Corona when our kids were using our computers for Zoom classes all day! The writing process itself was complex because we worked on multiple chapters in parallel rather than sequentially. Each chapter went through multiple reviews—often requiring one expert for the scientific parts and another for the halachic aspects.

After we completed the manuscript, a great deal of time in those final two years went into the graphic elements such as layout and images. We also spent a lot of time producing the extensive glossary and cross-referencing system in the back of the book. Looking back, this additional time was well spent, as we have gotten endless positive feedback about how these additional elements really enhance the learning experience.

Eliezer: Which mentors or Rabbanim inspired or influenced this project?

Joel: Rav Malinowitz was truly a big part of the inspiration behind this sefer. His encouragement to use our individual gifts in service of Klal Yisroel ultimately led to this project, even if he wasn’t with us for most of the process.

Jonathan: Absolutely. Rav Malinowitz’s shiurim on Chovos Halevavos were particularly influential. I was also inspired by the writings of Rav Avigdor Miller and Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks.

More generally, I’d say I was inspired to create this work after seeing the many excellent seforim out there on niflaos HaBorei. While these works are valuable, I felt that much more could be written on how deeply science illustrates Yichud Hashem if people had more background.

Unfortunately, I was also motivated by the pseudo-science that sometimes appears in frum books about science. I hoped that providing accurate scientific explanations within a Torah framework could help address this issue.

Eliezer: Did you seek advice from Rabbanim about how to approach potentially sensitive topics?

Jonathan: We hired Rav Eliezer Stahl to thoroughly check all halachic and hashkafic inyanim. He came highly recommended to us as an expert in this very role and to our minds he did a truly fantastic job.

Joel: Yes, he did. But in general, we did our very best to ensure that there was nothing controversial or even particularly sensitive in the sefer.

The truth is, we consulted with a number of rabbanim throughout the process. But all that said, if anyone finds fault with anything we wrote, we and we alone take full responsibility for it.

Eliezer: What is the future of this project? Do you plan to translate it into Hebrew or write additional volumes?

Joel: Yes, to both! Our immediate goal is to introduce this sefer into yeshiva day schools as part of their limudei chol curriculum. Our sefer is already used as a classroom resource for middle-school students in a number of yeshivas in the United States. We’ve also developed a comprehensive Teacher’s Guide for all chapters that provides useful tools to use the sefer in classrooms, including suggested curricula, lesson plans, printable vocabulary worksheets, quizzes with thorough answer keys, and other resources. We provide the Teacher’s Guide to schools free of charge. Recently we joined The Machon (A Torah-based institute for curriculum, serving yeshivos across North America with a digital platform) to write their science curriculum, partly using the resources in our sefer.

Jonathan: Right. Additionally, we intend to produce volumes on other mesechtos and have been working hard on the next volume, which will be on Meseches Shabbos. We hope this second volume will be publicly available within 24 months.

Eliezer: If you had to highlight four sections that showcase the unique strengths of the book, which would you choose?

Joel: Let me point to four sections that I think best illustrate what makes our sefer special:

First, at the very beginning we have our “Read This First” section, which has a brief but fairly comprehensive discussion on the Torah hashkafa relating to the study of natural sciences. In my opinion, this might be the most important part of the entire sefer, as it frames not just our book but provides guidance for how parents and teachers should approach this topic with their children and students.

Second, also before the main text begins, we present five sample curricula (physics, chemistry, general biology, human biology, and earth sciences) that could be taught as a science program using the book’s chapters. These demonstrate how our sefer truly synthesizes Torah and science throughout.

Third, Chapter 7, Halachic Hours (Berachos 4:1), exemplifies how we use visuals to clarify complex concepts. Everyone knows the days are longer in summer and shorter in winter, but few have an intuitive understanding of why. Through carefully designed diagrams, we help readers understand the physical processes that cause the timing of netz and shkiya to shift throughout the year. These aren’t mere illustrations – they’re teaching tools that make complex concepts intuitive.

Finally, Chapter 15, Bread and Nutrition (Berachos 6:1) is unique, because instead of opening with a scientific question about the Mishnah as we do in the other chapters, here we ask, “Why does bread get its own special blessing?” From there, we weave together hashkafic and halachic perspectives on nutrition before delving into detailed food chemistry and the science of macro- and micronutrients. It’s perhaps our longest chapter, and I believe it perfectly demonstrates how we integrate halachah, hashkafah, and technical science into a cohesive whole.

Jonathan: I think the greatest strength of this book is how it teaches fundamental science concepts within a kodesh framework. For instance:

Chapter 11, Wind and Air Pressure (Berachos 5:2), explains air pressure in the context of why we daven for wind and why Mashiv HaRuach truly belongs in the category of Gevuros Hashem.

Chapter 21, Incense and Our Sense of Smell (Berachos 6:6), explores how our sense of smell works on a molecular level within the context of explaining what incense is and how the ketores worked.

Chapter 26, The Color of Fire (Berachos 8:5), teaches about the connection between high temperatures and color while explaining the physical basis for the machlokes between Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai on the berachah over the havdalah candle.

Chapter 28, Meteors and Comets (Berachos 9:2), offers a primer on astronomy while teaching about the machlokes on what zikin are.

Eliezer: Thank you both for sharing your insights into your groundbreaking work.

“The Science Behind the Mishnah” truly offers a unique bridge between scientific understanding and Torah learning, enhancing both in the process. I encourage readers to explore this valuable sefer for themselves and their families. Whether you’re a parent, educator, or simply someone seeking to deepen your appreciation of both Torah and Hashem’s creation, this work offers something truly special. You can learn more at www.ScienceBehindTheMishnah.com